| נשלח ב-9/12/2005 06:05 |
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Judaism for poor me [dedicated to Hasid]
As an avid reader of the Hebrew Atzor I was pleasantly surprised to see many of veto's stuff articulated here by the guy standing at the door, as if undecided on entering, which happens to be very symbolic because it seems that he's saying stuff yet not saying it, if you know what I mean.
Sweetest Ani, I don't mean to be disparaging you here at all God forbid, nothing would be further in my mind than to in any way say a bad word on a holy soul like yourself.
I love your holy and deep words about humility mammesh Gevalt. Yet as you write so sweetly about a lot of explanations going on here, I thought that it wouldn't hurt to add some explanations of my own.
Am I explaining your thoughts correctly? Am I even explaining my own thoughts correctly? Do my words know what my heart knows? Who knows.
Hasid Emes, you're so amazing, looking and cleaving to truth, as your name so aptly describes Oif Mir Gevintshen.
Let us let go from all our preconceived ideas of Life, God, Judaism.
So there is this wonderfully pure man who has become humble enough to let his heart shine through all misconceptions, who shows me my wants as being silly misconceptions, projections and espectations o the future that are not based on the true reality for if they would be based on the true facts they will never be wrong. I start expecting only things based on reality and reality shows me that there is no real distinction between me and someone else, I am doing things according to what reality shows me no distinctions, in perfect harmony, letting my heart of hearts shine through the forest of previous thoughts and concepts that are passé by now, passé for the only reason that now I know these concepts and know where they don't add up, something I didn't know before, something I didn't have a possibility of knowing as is obvious from the fact that I didn't know it, Yet today their time has come.
The words of a humble man are words of Truth, are words that have less of a chance of being repudiated tomorrow as having lacked some other angel that shows where in the end it's not accurate. A humble man keeps a blank slate with no pretensions of things required to be in a certain way, He allows his heart to reign supreme not his previous thoughts but his here and now, shining through the web of preconceived thoughts we call Mind.
They are words of Reality, words of God.
So this humble man tells us how much better it would be if we do this that and the other. He talks the language of the people and uses their metaphors, he himself is not perfect either, his heart can't possibly shine through ALL conceptions that has accumulated in him, his mind is still here after all, he couldn't take away all preconceived concepts for then he's not left with any thoughts at all. Things that needed very very deep rooting out to get rid of were not all gone, things that today we don't need to think too deeply to rid ourselves of, things that we actually don't even think that way at all.
Yet as a whole his words are words of God words of reality. If and when most of what he said are so commonplace to us that it doesn't need depth of heart to shine through, if what in his day was seen as a laser beam of light shining from the depths of true Reality, is seen today as commonplace and we are much more ahead in seeing what reality is then we are already in the times of ומלאה הארץ דעה את ה' which then calls for תורה חדשה מאתי תצא .
So long as I am nebech not so strong in Giving, so long as I don't love shabbos with all my heart as a day of telling myself that I don't really do a thing, that in reality I rest a whole week too, so long that I'm not in harmony with Reality so that I don't see myself as making change but just flowing along to the current of reality, dancing along to Its tune, so long as that doesn't happen then I know that to me Moshe's words are still the word of God. (except where my own holy heart shouts clearly NO)
Actually it may be flawed in many places, but I for one need a social system to live by, so I pick the one that seems the most likely to lead me slowly to Truth to Reality to Existence, where all I do is simply tuning in with Reality, and truth is so strong that I finally move in to the holy city of Luz where death is a non issue, where death is another song and dance that I dance along happily.
I am not too afraid of breaking the system although it would be beautiful if I keep All of it, the good parts. But fear and pain is the ugliest and the worst. The last thing I need is that strong wall of fear blocking my spirit from shining through.
Possibly not everybody understood Him right and surely very few understood him in a way that's good for a much later day and age. Yet is the answer to chuck it all? Yes! On condition that you show me the alternative. The alternative should come along with a society that is ready to practice it, for I need a Misgeret, I am not a hermit, I am nebech not Avrohom Avinu.
And make it feasible too, I can't go to India tomorrow, Don't test me with לך לך מארצך וממולדתך ומבית אביך give me something I can live with. If you can't, then maybe I'll take the whole package here and let myself be cleansed till when I'm ready to be tested and to find the better society if there is one.
Oh, words words, you have mocked me once again.
Gevald it's almost shabbos, just one Friday, but Friday is Erev Shabbos Oy A Mechaye
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| נשלח ב-9/12/2005 07:51 |
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Ok brothers, I have finally let loose, I have allowed myself to start writing here, the only way to stop me from letting my stream of consciousness flow continously is by you my dear brothers letting me know that it's not what is wanted here. As long as you don't do that please forgive.
I just want to add to my pervious writing, [please remeber that I would love that my writing is not writing in the conventional sense but writing B'bchinas לשון קולמוס הלב an outpouring of the stirrings of heart and soul.]
Oy Gevald, not only קולמוס הלב that it's sort of a messenger of the heart, not only about writing down on paper what my heart cries out, No No,, Yes sure that too but much more it should be the קולמוס that writes on my לב, the pen used to be כתבם על לוח לבך.
It's so nice and true to beg and wait with bated breath for the day when i will be zocha to be on the level of requiring the תורה חדשה מאתי תצא But I want to remind myself that it would really be strongly in tandem with ושם נשיר שיר חדש the new Torah should really be a new song for my soul a song that i'll sing and dance with every fiber of my being.
The whole wide world is waiting to sing the song of shabbos  and I am also waiting to sing the song of Shabbos. Mammesh Mammesh
Who wants to learn? I want to sing, please let us all sing together in harmony with all
תוקן על ידי - לב_יודע - 09/12/2005 7:54:47
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| נשלח ב-9/12/2005 10:32 |
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LevYodea,
What a beautiful entrance 
One remark. you wrote: "he couldn't take away all preconceived concepts for then he's not left with any thoughts at all". As a reader of the hebrew Atzor, you surely know the concept of "Maase Descartes bechol yoim". [Machloikes hashoskim if it may be done before birchas hatoire. Some say since it is derech eretz kodmoo latoire, it may be done before and some even say aderabe, by doing it before, its position is better stressed. However, others claim that the necessity of yiroosoi koidemes lechochmoosoi is even stronger regarding the shpitz chochme.] The Descarter Rebbe himself said that when you shall undertake his derech ha pre-limid, you will be surprised to find out how much and many things you know absolutely. I use as my signature "lamed leshoinchoo..." not out of humility but because of this idea. By ascertaining what I don't know, I find out what I do know.
Be well and thanks for warming us up with your presence.
למד לשונך לומר:
"איני יודע"
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| נשלח ב-9/12/2005 18:03 |
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Holiest Rabeinu Veto,
Three little green men, Wow.
But then I have to give you THREE THOUSAND little green men and that is only for the stuff you write here then 100 times as much for the stuff you write in the Hebrew Atzcach. But I'm afraid I'll use up all the green men 
Yehuda, or Veto or whatever your holy name is, אתה בנצבין ומצודתך פרוסה מסוף העולם ועד סופו but not in the way of a conventional מצודה that ensnares an unwilling captive, on the contrary you allow them to just open their hearts to truth and they captivate themselves with the stirrings of their own soul. Not where a Goy gets killed for doing something wrong but where a Yid becomes alive for doing something right.
I don't think there is a way in the world to thank someone for giving him Life. Gevald Gevald let these thoughts stay with me and let them be powerfull enough to become deeds too, let the energy of thought be frozen into concrete existence where it is there for keeps.
I am starting to thank you but I'm not finishing or I am not even really starting. But I promise you that someday I will start, I know that my heart will win in the end לא ידח ממנו נדח
Thanks for your beautiful response here, deep, charming and witty, as usual.
What my heart was telling me when I am writing that "if I really take away all previous thougts and concepts then there are no thoughts at all" is that really really there is no way of conceptualizing existence, for if the only thing I would have would be one specific sensation then I won't be able to conceptualize it at all, I won't have with what to define it with what to be it מגביל for I don't have anything else.
If there is really no way of thinking of existence If and when I really truly see and live with this concept, let it be today, let it be now, for you and me and for all of us, then there are no thoughts at all.
Not only למוד לשוני לומר איני יודע, but also תכלית ידיעתי שאדע שאיני יודע.
Maybe at that point I will stop living in a self concious way, an unfortunate Eitz Hadaas way which its basic ingredient is about tearing myself away from oneness and harmony with the whole of existence, Maybe I will then stop being I, there will be no thoughts in the conventional way but just one long dance to the tunes of Existence.
Maybe I don't really understand what my heart has commanded me to write, but if I only understand a tiny bit then תהא זה שכרי
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| נשלח ב-9/12/2005 22:03 |
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Lev,
A dedicated thread, now that's an honor. 
I hope you don't mind a few sincere questions.
1. Why do you feel the need to live in a social system?
2. Why isn't the social system devised by democracies settling enough?
3. If the sole reason of you doing the Mitzvos is your own needs and not because of a true belief in a demanding creator, then how can you not transgress a Mitzvah when you cannot foresee any repercussions? Is it any different than cautiously driving through a red light? Who of us has not broken the law, even a minor one?
תוקן על ידי - hasid_emes - 09/12/2005 22:03:52
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| נשלח ב-9/12/2005 23:11 |
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Chasid my Holy Brother,
I sincerely promise that I feel honored having the opportunity to dedicate something to such a pure soul as yourself. You may think I'm just being polite but please please believe me by believing in yourself. I hear too many people telling me that I'm not kosher because I think, because I don't keep the commandments stringently. But that's still ok, only when I myself start thinking that way consciously or subconsciously then, Oy Gevald, then it is probably the biggest Nisayen sent to me by God to see if I can continue along the path of truth and righteousness, the path of looking and cleaving to truth, the path of being a real Chasid Emes. The path that you have chosen for yourself as is evident from your writing and sincere holy questioning.
I promise you that it is few people who are as pure as yourself. Please don't let anybody tell you differently. It's not despite your questioning, not despite your possible lack of following the commandments, no no, it's because of it.
Inasmuch as I allow my heart to shine through with its truths, inasmuch as I promise myself not to do anything that pure truth doesn't tell me to do, that is as pure I am.
I know you believe me now because I know your heart knows words of truth, so please please believe in yourself, the world can't afford that you allow the dense forest of misconceptions to slowly blur the life of truth you have so purely chosen.
Do I mind you asking anything, Gevalt, how could I? For besides all of the above that tells you how much my heart respects and cherishes truth and purity there is also something else. My heart doesn't allow me to mind anything at all, as Ani explains so beautifully, once I accept reality, once my expectations are strictly based on reality then my expectations are ALWAYS fulfilled, Good is fulfillment of my expectations and as long as I have no silly unrealistic expectations then it is always fulfilled (please note any expectation not completely aligned with Reality is silly because why do you expect something that is not based on fact). If I mind something, if I find something that is not meeting up to my expectations it tells me something silly about myself. עשה רצונך כרצונו is much deeper than the simple explanation.
Please allow for a moment of prayer that the above should take me over completely not only for one good minute. Prayer meaning reaffirming my inner souls yearning by acting as if כביכול I am talking to some Higher Being, along with affirming that even this yearning is not dependent in me it depends on what Reality (the facts) has in store for me so that even in this I'm really helpless. (is it really me that led myself up to this point or is it circumstance, isn't it just the facts of reality that got me up to this point and it is this Reality that guides me further).
Gevald Ve Halt Ich Du, you asked some questions didn't you.
I need Shabbos I need prayer I need Pesach I need Lechu Nerannu and Mizmor Shir LeYom HaShabbos. I need it and I love it. As long as I have Donald Trump (I'm sure he's good too) I need Shabbos to counteract my day to day exposure to so much misconceptions about life, I need Prayer to help me keep the light of truth burning in my heart.
You see, I even need Shlomo'le to sing his sweet songs to me to keep the words of the Holy Piasetzner seared in my soul, קינדערלאך געדענקזשע אז די גרעסטע זאך אויף דער וועלט איז טועהן א טובה פאר א צווייטען.
I need all of that, maybe if I wouldn't be exposed to the other extreme, to nebech selfish ego centricity then I will be fine with a civil system that makes sure that no one harms each other, but the day when all of us will already have the Torah in our heart, the day where we won't need any commandments is still not here nebech.
The last question for later as it's almost shabbos here.
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| נשלח ב-11/12/2005 01:15 |
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Why do I really need Shabbos and what does it mean to me?
At first glance I need it as I need a traffic light, and as you have rightly said that traffic lights can be disregarded at times yet without doubt it is a very important institution that in general, the same goes with Shabbos.
What is important for me to realize that I shouldn't judge my need for shabbos according to what it does to me today, for Shabbos is a work in progress for all of us individually.
Is there a question that a day of holding back from my daily life is wonderful, if that daily life is obsessed with me me me, so much so that it doesn't even let me hear my own thoughts, it doesn't let me hear my heart cry out Moshe'le what are you doing? Why are you being irrational when all you really want is to live rationally? Why are you torturing yourself on so many different levels? (reminds me of Charlie Croker, the rich almost bankrupt guy in Thomas Wolfe's excellent book A Man In Full, how he realized that sometimes being homeless is much less torturous than being a rich guy, a fabulous book [much better than his 'Charlotte'] )
Why am I obsessing my mind and my life with unrealistic expectations, why am not seeing the facts as they are so that I won't have any conflict between reality and my minds version of it, between my minds projection of the future vs. the fact, the reality, the realistic projection. Why don't I live in total peace with the facts, in peace with my lot, in peace with the Universe, stop trying to circumvent it, it's an exercise in futility.
Oh God, let me always remember that if I ever meet up with anything that is not going One Hundred percent as per my expectations then it means that I have had expectations not based on reality.
Gevald Gevald, a day of meditating on these principles are making me feel that it really is the case that כל ברכאין דלעילא ותתא ביומא שביעאה תליון .
But the main thing to me is to that I freeze these thoughts so that just as frozen energy they materialize into concrete forms, into actions. אם תעירו אם תעוררו את האהבה when is it really worth it, only עד שתחפץ. Not only because then I have at that moment been real with my thoughts, been whole, where my whole being is on the same page, not only because then I was Mekaim תמים תהיה עם הויה 'be whole with Being'. But also because when I progress along enough that my thoughts concretize and become a חפץ then at that tiny level I have broken away from thought, from self-conscious thought, where there is an individual that is thinking, an individual separate from the thing he's thinking about, I have at that level made myself into an object.
Where do I go from here? I don't know yet, but tomorrow is another day.
Cheers.
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| נשלח ב-11/12/2005 17:22 |
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Lev,
Again, your posts are beautiful and inspiring.
But what did you mean by writing that I'm saying things yet not saying?
Do you expect me to write everything thats on my mind? That's a very dangerous enterprise where I'm coming from.
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| נשלח ב-12/12/2005 16:39 |
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The truth is that I'm not sure why I am making the concept of being at peace with myself into a holy cause. It's just a simple self-help idea.
Let me even go a step further and let me imagine that I have also incorporated the whole universe in my self-help idea, according to that plan the whole world is happy and content the תיקון עולם is finally here. So what now? Why would I say that implementing this goal, implementing the תיקון is something that should be called holy?
Maybe this is the answer.
Holiness is happiness because when I get rid of all those obstructions and misconceptions that are in my mind then there is no conflict, no contradictions, so my reality is whole, is at peace. But I don't want to be pure so that I should be happy, no no, I want to be pure because when there is contradiction, when things have not been sorted out and I have misconceptions, when I don't see the facts in their pure form, [there isn't really a distinction between the facts that I see, and myself. I am the facts, so if the facts are not pure then it really is that I am not pure.] I then am torn within myself, one part of my reality is ordering me to see things in one way yet another part tells me to see it differently.
Yet the above still sounds like I'm doing it so that I won't be 'torn within myself'. Isn't that trying to be happy?
Maybe this is the right answer. Contradiction can't be, I can't be aware that this is a chair and that it's not a chair. The reason I can have contradictions in my mind is because I don't realize that it's really a contradiction. If I completely don't realize that it's contradictory in any way then there's nothing to discuss, it's only when something seems a little contradictory, when I somehow have a little sense that this act or concept doesn't add up, by realizing it I am actually focusing on it (think of it like a bump along the highway the higher the bump the more focus it gets from me, it doesn't blend in) the more I focus on it the more I bring it out in strong relief, the more I will automatically see where I have mistaken in identifying my reality. Even if I don't ascertain which one is more accurate, the mere fact of realizing that I'm not sure which one it is, is stopping it from being contradictory, for I say that it may be X or it may be that it's not X which is not like saying it's X and not X.
What the above tells me that existence abhors contradiction [reminds me of 'nature abhors a vacuum], my consciousness (which is really existence) abhors contradiction, it naturally pushes away contradiction, it naturally pushes towards purity of thought.
By saying that my consciousness abhors contradiction I am saying that my consciousness longs for things to be non contradictory, actually loves it that way. That is why I want; nay I crave, for purity.
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| נשלח ב-13/12/2005 10:11 |
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Hmm, being at peace with myself is really a kind of sorting out thing in my mind, it's the mind, the logic that guides, then the emotions associated with being at peace will follow. And my heart has told me that this is what Purity means, the concept should be represented in my mind only as the concept itself, not mixed with something else. טהור like in זהב טהור. Once a concept is being thought in my mind in a way that is not really what the concept is saying then I'm being contradictory, for I ascertain in my mind a certain concept which has its clear boundaries, and in a vague way I am aware that this is precisely what the concept is about, yet at the same time I'm misrepresenting this concept and adding something to it, something which I vaguely have ascertained not to be the case. So I'm contradicting myself. It's not the concept in its purity; it's mixed with something else.
Ok, but what is this holiness all about? Glad you asked.
Holiness may be the idea of abstraction, מוקדש ומופרש from the simple concepts which confront us every minute, seeing the deeper essence of things not in its accidental form. Which again is a process of sorting things out, a process of identifying things what they are and eliminating (in my mind) what they are not. A small child doesn't even know what abstract thought is all about, when I grow a little older I think that love means sharing my Ice Cream, but then I see that love is an abstract concept that manifests itself 'sometimes' by giving Ice Cream. Understanding things what they are essentially not how it manifests itself at times. Up to the point where I'll maybe realize that time and space too are just tools in structuring reality and that this oh so glorified 'I' will have to be relegated to the dustbin.
When I get all excited over some nice poetry, melody, or combination of both, where the thoughts conveyed are about holiness or about kindness to all of mankind etc. I should try to associate it with the real concepts behind it.
Oy Gevald what about simple humility, why all this mumbo jumbo pseudo intellectual stuff, how about I stop this silliness and become the תמים of R' Nachman Breslov.
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| נשלח ב-13/12/2005 10:13 |
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Hasid, sweet soul, why am I afraid to transgress? Well I don't think I'm afraid and therefore I transgress big time.
The only fear that I should have is that maybe I need the discipline of davening three times day so that by me not davening a whole week straight, by me not having steady reminders that help me see true reality I am really going against my want of being pure and holy.
Hasid, please help me understand your question better. Don't you agree that most of the Mitzvoth lend themselves easily to be utilized as bringing me closer to pureness and holiness?
Once we would agree that our real wants are not egoistic but inclusive, once we see that we don't have any 'goals', we just are doing our thing. We just skip along happily doing whatever we see fit. Once we realize how much we really push for that, we will then see fit to use all tools at our disposal. I would be silly not to use Brochos, Tzitis and the vast majority of all mitzvoth as tools for continuing along in my path.
So what if I don't think that I will die if I carry a key in my pocket on shabbos, or switching on a light, for that matter. Except that may be that it will slowly lead me to do more and more work on shabbos up to where it will stop being a day of meditation.
So what if I hardly ever get up in time for Zman Krias Shema? To the point of forgetting that such a thing exists. Does it lessen the beauty of Kabolas Ol Malchus Haviah? That existence is boss and that whatever reality, true reality guides me that's what I'll do.
Miracles did or didn't happen, nah they probably didn't. Who cares. I want to be pure and holy because that's what I am, as meditated above.
Ultimately it probably is good to have a regimented discipline of getting up in time, of allowing myself to feel the beauty of knowing that I remind myself of Existence at sunrise and sunset. Heck maybe it will even bring me a bit closer to living a bit of my life according to nature and not be basing everything around my watch.
Who says discipline is bad?
I think that the only reason to completely not be observing Torah is if I don't find any value in truth pureness and holiness. Now don't get me wrong, I believe the same goes for many other religions too. For most of the religions where meant to help people become truthful and pure, and their rituals can be utilized for these goals. It's just that we are here, and here to stay, so I will definitely utilize what I've got.
Yet I'll agree that לא תחיה כל נשמה is horrifyingly bad.
I pick and choose my own Judaism you say. Yet by being an American and loving many of its ideals do I have to love to massacre Indians? I sure as hell will say that it was murder plain and simple. As I would say that slavery was as disgusting as can be. I may decide even not to celebrate Columbus day due to the above but will I not celebrate Thanksgiving or July 4th?
It could be that the Swiss have a cleaner record and ALL their Holidays are nice and pure, am I moving there tomorrow? Nah not any time soon. I'll live here and I'll pick and choose.
And if it so happens that I will find that most of the American customs are nice and worthwhile doing, then I will realize that for all intents and purposes I am living the American way.
Same with Judaism.
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| נשלח ב-13/12/2005 19:00 |
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Lev_Y.,
It is a real pleasure to read you. The deepest ideas flow from your words like the softest of jaccuzzis on silky skin.
However I have a remark on a passing remark that you made.
You wrote:
Now don't get me wrong, I believe the same goes for many other religions too. For most of the religions where meant to help people become truthful and pure, and their rituals can be utilized for these goals. It's just that we are here, and here to stay, so I will definitely utilize what I've got.
I of course agree that this basis exits in other religions/ideologies/societies too. From your words one can gather that the reason to choose Judaism is because you happen to be there. I would even agree to one part of the automatic "diyuk" that if you are somewhere else stick there [at least in general].
I will only debate as to what we should advise to someone who is not totally there or who is neutral. Isn't our place unique in that it holifies the study of right and wrong for its own sake which includes all kinds of resulting advantages? One of them being "here-here" meaning Atzkach?
תוקן על ידי - ווטו1 - 13/12/2005 18:59:52
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| נשלח ב-13/12/2005 21:18 |
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Lev,
Indeed—as Veto said it is certainly a pleasure reading your deep thoughts.
Allow me though, to put your ideas in fewer words and perhaps with a slightly cynical approach, but please understand where I'm coming from and believe me I don't mean לקנטר at all but I'm here to listen, to learn and to question when I don't understand.
It does seem that it wasn't God that chose you but you chose God. Now, ultimately is shouldn't make a difference but in your case it does—you're applying democracy and the 'American way' to a theocracy and it causes you to transgress or in plain words 'sin'. Of course you're explaining it beautifully and even understandable, but if God is who they claim him to be he is not so understanding, and of that you should fear.
I know that I'm sinning here with applying my views in black and white without trying to understand the shades of gray in between, but honestly, the truth is indeed one, not shady.
As for me, it only invigorates my perhaps lowly opinion that since God cannot be convincing to me (maybe even due to the inferior mind we humans have in regards to the almighty, nevertheless,) I will wait around and see whether I can have a change of mind (not of heart) and become a good Jew once again.
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| נשלח ב-13/12/2005 23:47 |
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Dear Hasid,
If I may mix in the dicussion, I would say that I understand that the god "who they claim him to be" is long dead for the gentlemen over here (if I may paraphrase Nietzche).
God is not anymore everything that one doesn't know, but everything that one knows. The fact that not everything is exactly as we would of have done it, had we been god, does not mean that we loose interest to be in line with the universe and with the human potentiality at its best!
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| נשלח ב-14/12/2005 00:13 |
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Rav Shachliel,
Then I'm back to my original ponder, who or what is God?
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