בית פורומים עצור כאן חושבים

הנה פס"ד מקורי [על הפיאות מהודו]

שלום אורח. באפשרותך להתחבר או להירשם
הצג 15 הודעות בעמוד הוסף לדף האישי  דווח למנהל שלח לחבר
נשלח ב-16/5/2004 12:09 לינק ישיר 

בצי

כתבת:
א-ל קנא לא קנא בע"ז רק לסבר את האוזן שלנו
מובן מאליו וכונתי היתה שעבודה זרה היום לא מהוה מרידה באלוהי ישראל כי הוא כבר לא נתפס כאליל הגדול ביותר שעבודת שאר האלילים תיחשב כמרידה נגדו אלא כבדיחת קירקס!

שאלת:
1) האם אתה מאמין שזאת התורה לא תהא מוחלפת? או שזו "הברגה"? ובאמת יכולים להחליפה מתי שמתחשק לחברי הפארום המכובד הזה?
לא רק שזו הברגה, אלא שהיא כבר הוחלפה עשרת מונים מאז נתינתה (אלא אם כן כונתך לבסיס שלה לחנך את האנושות שלא יוחלף). אמנם יכולים להחליפה אבל בתנאי שזה ייעשה באלגנטיות של הברגה. אני רק מתיחס ליסודות המחייבים שינוי ואת ההברגה אני משאיר לך ו/או לשאר חברי הפורום.
2) מה רע עם דברים שבעלי חיים אכלו? (ע"פ הלוגיקה שלך..) האם זה טבעי או "הברגה" של הסוחרים שרוצים למכור סחורה חדשה ולא ממוחזרת?
לא הבנתי את כונתך. אני התכונתי שההתעללות בבעלי החיים ולקיחתם כחומר מאכל גרוע בהרבה ממה שאיזה טיפש זורק לפסל או לקברו של בר יוחאי.
3) מנין אתה יודע מתי ה' צוחק? האם אתה מאמין שהוא אינו גוף ולא ישיגוהו משיגי הגוף? או שזה גם הדעה קדומה של החרדים?
לשון זה מכלל סיבור האוזן ולא שייך שהאל יהיה גוף אבל מה שכתבת ש'לא ישיגוהו משיגי הגוף' טעון הסבר כי איזה משיגים יש לך מחוץ למשיגי הגוף? תטען שהשכל? השכל אינו משיג אלא את הכלול והמנותח במשיגי הגוף!
4) מי הם האלילים התורניים שגורמים לו התקפת צחוק? האם בכללם אחד המשתתפים בפארום?
כאמור, אלה שרואים עדיין בעבודה זרה משהו רציני ולא צחוק בעלמא. לגבי המשתתף בפורום שנלחם עדיין בעבודה זרה היהודית ולא למד לצחוק עליה (אם הבנתי את כונתך), לפחות לשיטתכם שהנכם לוקחים את העבודה זרה הנכרית ברצינות, הוא צודק שעליכם לבער גם את העבודה זרה היהודית!

אלון,
כמו שיש כיום יהודים שנוסעים לאלילי הודו, כך יש יהודים שנוסעים לכל מיני אלילים ופנטזיות אחרות. לכן על החינוך כיום להיות ממוקד על כלל האמונות הטפילות כבעיה פסיכולוגית אבל לא כבעיה דתית!



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מנותק
נשלח ב-16/5/2004 12:42 לינק ישיר 

באטשי

קמת מוקדם היום .

לא הבנתי את הפיסקה המתחילה ב'בתיבה אישית' (שוב אונגערישער?)

לא היה לי טענות על הכינוי 'צואה' אלא על מה שהיה נראה לי כהפיכת הענין לעיקר אמונה שכל מי שמנסה לדון בו באופן ענייני יש לתקוף אותו בטענות שלא ממין הענין . אם טעיתי ולא הבנתי כוונתך נכונה הריני מתנפל לרגליך בבקשת סליחה .



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מנותק
נשלח ב-16/5/2004 12:55 לינק ישיר 

רק כתבתי לתשובה למה לא ישבו שבעה נקיים עד שימצאו היתר, שדבר זה הוא אביזרייהו דע"ז.

ובאמת מי מילל ומי פילל שעוד נזכה לקיים את המצוות האלו?



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סמל אישי
מנותק
נשלח ב-16/5/2004 13:08 לינק ישיר 

אילו היית צריך לבער חצי מליון דולר גם אז היית שמח על הזכייה הגדולה ?



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מנותק
נשלח ב-16/5/2004 13:17 לינק ישיר 

על זאת יתפלל כל חסיד אל תביאני לידי נסיון



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סמל אישי
מנותק
נשלח ב-18/5/2004 15:05 לינק ישיר 

לאור העובדה ששיער אדם משמש גם להוצאת חלבונים בשביל חומרים משמרים , האם צפוי לנו בקרוב גם שערוריית כשרות אדירה ?

בקיצור , קיץ חם מחכה לנו!



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מנותק
נשלח ב-20/5/2004 01:49 לינק ישיר 

From:
http://www.kashrut.org/forum/viewpost.asp?mid=7727

Almost 40 years ago, Rav Moshe Sterenbuch put out a kuntres called ''Das V'halachah'', wherein he prohibited deriving any benefit from human hair products out of India, because of the Isser of takrovos avodah zorah.

His writes that the Indian hair is purchased from Hindu Temples which get the hair from women who cut it off in an avodah zorah ceremony, which goes something like this:

The woman cuts her hair off as a sacrifice to the Hindu god, Vishnu. The cutting of the hair is done at or in the temple and is a religious procedure itself, like shechting a korbon, and then it is supposed to be burned on an alter in a sacrifice to Vishnu.

The Hindu priests, however, after placing the hair on the alter and perhaps burning some of them, proceed to steal most of the sacrifice hairs and sell them to exporters. From those hairs come the Indian human hair shaitlach. There were also other possible scenarios that he entertained, but at the end of the day, he prohibited all of them.

The rabbonim weren't doing much about this then, because first of all, shaitel manufacturers started covering it up, claiming that the hair doesn't really come from Temples, or that it doesn't really come from India, or that only some of the Indian hair comes form the Temples but the majority does not, or they promise not to get hair form India but they did anyway; and secondly, it was hard to confirm Rabbi Shterenbuch's story, so and due to the contradictions, confusion, lack of confirmation, and the fact that in those days Rav Shterebuch was a young man with much less clout than he has today, nothing much happened.

Then, about 20 years later, in 1979, a rabbi in Flatbush receieved a call from one of his congregants who read in a business journal that the Indian hair that ends up in wigs comes from Buddhist temples. The rabbi announced in Shul that the shaitlach are prohibited.

Upon hearing this, many rabbonim did some research into the matter and found out that indeed about 70% of the Indian human hair comes from Hindu Temples, mostly in the Madras region, the by-product of a Hindu practice called ''tonsure.''

Rav Schwab ZTL was ready to prohibit the shaitlach, as were most other rabbonim in America. The more research was done, the scarier the situation looked.

That is, up to a point. What happened was that when the inquiries got really thorough a totally different picture emerged. There turned up many contradictory stories about the practice and procedure and meaning of the tonsure among the Hindus that were interviewed Some said that the hair cutting is a sacrifice; some said it wasn't; some said that sometimes it is and sometimes its not; some said that different Hindu sects and even different individuals do it for different reasons; some said that the Hindu hair is holy and therefore used in the religious practice and others said the opposite – that hair is unclean and therefore it is cut off before the woman enters the Temple; others said that really the process is not avodah zorah but the women who get their hair cut think it is, and that itself would prohibit.

I suppose it's kind of like, l'havdil, if a non-Jew would take it upon himself to find out about let's say the Jewish rite of circumcision. Who would he ask? An orthodox Jew? Conservative? Reform? A kabbalist? Metzitzah bepeh? Not b'peh? I mean, how many times do we see articles about Judaism in secular sources? And how many times do we laugh at them and say they haven't got a clue? The same thing seemed to be happening here.

So they contacted swamis, which are like Hindu rabbis, or teachers, or yogis, who referred them to a man who was supposedly the biggest scholar in Hinduism in this country, a Dr. Anand Mohan, professor of religion and philosophy at City College in Queens, NY, and a Hindu priest.

According to Dr. Mohan, the hair cutting practice is not a sacrifice to any god. What happens is, women sometimes make a vow that if either a simcha and/or a tzara happens to them, they will ''give away a prized possession'' of theirs. Since they are not allowed to cut their hair at all except under certain circumstances, their long, silky hair is their most beautiful and prized possession. So they make a vow to cut it off.

They do not have to do this in a temple, and they can throw the hair in the garbage of they want – it doesn't matter what happens to it. The point is that they do away with a prized possession. That possession could also theoretically be a gold bangle, or any object of value.

There are other times that they would perform a hair cutting as well, such the first haircut of a baby.

Cutting the hair is kind of a purification process, like taking a shower, except instead of getting rid of dirt, they get rid of hair. In fact, after they cut the hair they take a bath before they enter the temples. And just as dirt would not be considered ''holy'' even if your bath was a religious practice, so too the hair is nothing but the garbage by-product of this purification process, and is in no way takrovos avodah zorah.

In the olden days, Dr. Mohan said, women indeed used to cut their hair and throw it away. Or they went to the temple to cut their hair, and the temple people threw it away. But then, some the temple people got an idea to make wigs out of the hair anddecided to make a business out of it.

So they stationed barbers outside of the temples where women would come and get their hair cut before they took their baths and entered the temple. The temple trustees – not the priests – take the hair and sell it. Theoretically, the women could sell it themselves, but if they would do that, it wouldn't be much of a self-sacrifice, since they are making profit on it, and the whole idea is that they have to ''give away'' something valuable.


Ad kan divrei Dr. Mohan.

His version of the story was confirmed independently by a Diana Eck, professor of Comparitive Religion and Indian Studies in Harvard University. Without hearing what Dr. Mohan said, she provided the exact same report.

The tonsure practice is a preparatory act for worship. It is not a act of worship itself. The primary shrine where this takes place is in Tirupati, in Southern Andhra Pradesh. It is a hilltop shrine. On festival days, 20,000-30,000 pilgrims come to Tirupati.

Rav Moshe Shterenbuch was then contacted, and he said that he really isn't sure of the information that he received, and that even if it is true, it ''quite possibly'' – not ''for sure'' - would create a prohibition of takrovos avodah zorah

All the information – every contradiction, version, and opinion, with the documantation - was collected, and set to Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach ZTL and Rav Elyashev.

They both permitted. Rav Shlomo Zalman, as reported by Rabbi Portnoy, said you can be lenient because since there are several doubts whether the hair in any given shaitel is really avodah zorah, we have a sfek sfeika.

Rav Elyashev wrote a 3 page teshuva, quoting Dr. Mohan by name (although in the printed version they for some reason omitted it), and explaining, among other things, that since the hair is not cut inside the temple in front of any god, and is not done as a manner of worship, it is permitted. He also writes that it doesn't matter what the woman has in mind as much as it does what the barber has in mind, and he knows why he is cutting the hair, and it is not for idolatry.

This is because in order to constitute takrovos avodah zorah, the cutting of the hair itself has to be a religious ceremony, comparable to shechitah, and so depends on the ''shochet'' himself.

Rav Elyashev adds, that of course this halachah depends on the facts, and he is relying on the facts as presented to him, so his psak is contingent on the accuracy of those facts.

Rav Sheinberg then also permitted at that time, based on the facts that he researched, primarily through a sefardic ''chacham''.

A lot of confusion happened during the research because when people investigated, there were a lot of Indian clerics talking about how the hair is an ''offering'' or a ''sacrifice'', which sounded scary. But it was later found out that they meant ''offering'' not as in Korbon but as in something you offer – or give; and ''sacrifice'' was not meant in the context of Korbon but rather ''self sacrifice''. So things were scary when they were investigated but when they were thoroughly investigated, things got better.

Rav Moshe Shterenbuch was sent the material as well, but he did not change his psak – he still prohibited. He disagreed with Rav Elyashev regarding certain halachos, plus he said he is not convinced that the Metzius is accurate, and so he does not have enough evidence to permit the safek d'oraisa.

Things were quiet until recently. The Wall Street Journal, last summer, published one of those articles describing the idolatrous practice of Indian tonsure as the source of the hair in American wigs. Just as 15 years ago, the tumult was triggered by an article in a trade magazine, so too now the tumult was triggered by the Journal article.

Slowly things started getting louder. It was discovered that Rav Shterenbuch prohibited, and about a month ago in Eretz Yisroel, Rav Moshe Shterenbuch's name came up on tzetlach prohibiting the shaitlach again.

Dayan Dunner of London went to Rav Elyashev and obtained a heter to go into the Hindu Temples to see what the story is – kdei lehoros (in order to pasken a shailah) that would be permitted – and he took a trip to India last week, and came back with information that led many Rabbonim to prohibit the shaitlach again.

However, I am not aware of what information is being used, and how thorough of an inquiry was done. Last time this happened, everyone got scared based on the first level of investigation, but later on, when the investigation got pretty intense, we found out it wasn't a problem.

So far, as far as I can see, Rav Wosner and Rav Karelitz put out a psak saying that ''based on the information that we received'', they consider it a maybe avodah zorah situation so you shouldn't buy any new Indian shaitlach going forward, and try hard to exchange what you already have. They did not say to throw out your shaitlach. They are paskening that they don't know, and giving over the halchic guidelines on how to act when you don't know.

Rav Elyashev did not put anything in writing, but Rabbi Efrati, one of Rav Elyashev's close people, wrote a couple of letters summarizing what he says Rav Elyashev said. I have heard that there are disagreements among Rav Elyashev's close people regarding the accuracy of those letters, as well as the accuracy of the information that is being given to Rav Elyashev.

In short, I have not heard a psak from any posek so far except that ''until we find out the whole story, we should be careful.'' Which is fine, but the issue was apparently investigated thoroughly and closed 15 years ago. And just as 15 years ago, this was the initial reaction, and even upon investigation this was the reaction, until we found out that we needed really thorough investigations, which were done, and resulted in a lenient ruling (i.e. from Rav Elyashev and Rav Shlomo Zalman), the question now arises: Is the information that is being given to the Rabbonim (a) accurate and (b) complete? And (c) is it more so than the extensive information that was collected 15 years ago?

And even if there is a problem, how do you know which shaitlach are avodah zorah and which are not? Believability is an entire halachic issue in itself, especially since we are dealing with vested interests of vendors.

Obvisouly this depends on the metzius more than on the halachah. And thus the question is: What is the real metzius. Many Rabbonim, such as Rav Wosner and Rav Karelitz, and perhaps Rav Elyashev, are saying they don't know. Yet.

The difficulty I am having with this is, the documentation that was done then seems compelling and conclusive. So it brings into question the accuracy and completeness of whatever information is causing doubts now. Especially since the current research was done is a very short time, and experience shows that until you get to the very bottom of the situation, it really does look like avodah zorah.

To me it seems that the metzius, the facts, as we know them at this point in time, indicate that there is no avodah zorah here, or at least there is enough reason to say there is no avodah zorah so as to permit the shaitlach, as per the psakim of Rav Shlomo Zalman, Rav Elyashev, and others back then. And since there has been no psak thus far issued except that ''since we don't know therefore we should be careful'', and some statements in the name of Rav Elyashev whose reliability has been contested, therefore, I would say that if your Rav is unsure of the facts of the matter, then do not wear the questionable shaitlach until the issue is further researched. If your Rav, on the other hand, is comfortable that the research was already completed years ago, and that the current situation is merely a matter of these Rabbonim independently verifying what your Rav already knows to be true, then you are fully entitled to follow your rav, and it would not be considered going against Rav Elyashev or Rav Wosner, since even the great poskim admit that if someone really knows the facts, the psak would be different.



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מחובר
נשלח ב-20/5/2004 12:27 לינק ישיר 

http://www.hydepark.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?whichpage=26&topic_id=934160

בברכה.



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מנותק
נשלח ב-20/5/2004 19:41 לינק ישיר 

There is an additional paragraph 2 to this article:

2 -
It turns out that the vast majority of hair imported from India is not
from temples. As reported in India Humanscape Magazine (link below),
4500 tons of hair are exported yearly. 4000 are from comb waste - i.e.
hair that fell naturally from women. Only 500 tons are from tonsuring.
So even according to R' Elyashiv's psak, we have a kol d'parish mei'ruba
parish on all Indian hair sheitels, and they should all be permitted.
Mitzvah l'farseim.

http://www.humanscapeindia.net/humanscape/new/may03/humanindex.htm



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מחובר
נשלח ב-21/5/2004 08:55 לינק ישיר 

חושבני שכותרת האשכול 'פסק דין מקורי' מתאימה לו ביותר, שכן עדיין לא הייתה שאלה בהיקף ממוני ואישי כמו שאלת הפיאות שלפי הערכה זהירה שוויה מאות מליוני דולר והיא מקיפה מאות אלפי אנשים - ובכל זאת היא נפסקה מתוך זלזול וחוסר בירור עובדות בצורה שאין כדוגמתה, שכן אף אחד מהרבנים האוסרים לא טרח לברר את הנתון הפשוט - מהו היחס בין כמות השער הבא ממקדשי האלילים לבין כמות השער הכללי הנמכרת מהודו כמו שמובא בלינק הקודם וכמו שכבר התפרסם בכמה וכמה מקומות. וניתן לומר 'כל דפריש מרובא פריש' כמו שכתב אפרתי במכתבו השני לאנשי אירופה וארה"ב [ויש לצין כי לפי מחקר הטיימס בהודו -הרי עיקר היצוא ממקדש הע"ז הוא דוקא לארצות הברית ובריטניה לאנדונזיה ומלזיה].

ומדכא לחשוב כיצד כל בתי הדין המכובדים נגררו אחד אחד השני מבלי שאף אחד יטרח לבדוק עובדות פשוטות אלו. ובשיחה עם אחד הרבנים שהשתתפו בהטלת האיסור - הוא אמר - כי הם סמכו על ***** שנחשב כממומחה למספרים - אבל גם אותו 'מומחה' הודה שלא טרח לבדוק את הנתונים.

כשאנו מעלים את ההשואה בין ההתנהגות התמוהה הזו לבין המראה הקלסי של הרב היושב רכון על הספרים במשך לילה שלם על מנת להתיר עוף מפני 'הפסד מרובה' הרי ההבדל זועק לשמים.

דבר זה מעורר מחשבות נוגות גם בנוגע לרמת הפסיקה בכל בתי הדין הללו שמוציאים חדשות לבקרים פסקי דין בעניני ממונות - ושלטענת הרבה מהמתדיינים אין הם מודעים למציאות הפיזית והחוקית ואף אינם טורחים לבודקה.



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מנותק
נשלח ב-21/5/2004 08:59 לינק ישיר 

שושן, לגבי דבריך על זלזול בחקירת העובדות, מה ידוע לך שהרב דונר לא בדק בהודו?



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מנותק
נשלח ב-21/5/2004 09:18 לינק ישיר 

הרב דונר לא בדק - ולא יכול היה לבדוק את היחס המספרי בין השער הבא ממקדש הע"ז לבין שאר השער שמקורו במספרות רגילות והוא כשר לחלוטין ושניהם מיוצאים מהודו, בכדי לבדוק נתון זה לא צריך להפליג ולהרחיק נדוד עד להודו אלא אפשר להתחיל בבדיקה ראשונית באתרי האינטרנט המתאימים כמו שעשו הגולשים כאן ובפורומים אחרים, ובכדי לקבל חוות דעת מוסמכת ובדוקה צריך לפנות לנספח המסחרי של הודו, לעיין בשנתון הסטטיסטי, וגם לברר במשרד ההודי הממונה על המסחר ושיש לו נתונים ברורים בנושא, ואני חוזר ואומר 'אף אחד לא טרח לבדוק נתונים אלו' על אף המשמעויות האדירות של האיסור.



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מנותק
נשלח ב-4/6/2004 16:39 לינק ישיר 




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מנותק
נשלח ב-4/6/2004 16:45 לינק ישיר 

ומי יודע מה עוד נובע מהטרדות הסובבים(ות) בנידון של הפאות הבאים(ות)?



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מנותק
נשלח ב-6/6/2004 04:47 לינק ישיר 

What I find most strange about the whole sheitel business is the quality of the evidence. Take for example the statement in the above letter by Rav Elyashuv. 'According to what they stated to me they saw a document from the authorities in India that 75% of the hair is from sacrifices to the idols.'

Now is it too much to ask where that document is, who saw it, what was the date on it, was it signed and by whom, which authorities, was it a government department and if so which one, if not who was the document from. Most importantly do they have a copy of the documnet and if not, why not? If the document is from the temple authorities is it not possible that they are overstating their products, or is only Jewish sheitel traders who are 'liars' and 'reshoim'?

I should add that according to a shiur by a R' Nissim Kaplan, who seemed to know all that was said at the meeting at Rav Elyashuv's home, Rabbi Dunner was shown the figures on a computer.

I have also listened to the full shiur of Rabbi Dunner and in my opinion his evidence is of a poor quality, with exaggerations, generalisations, a very poor assessment of the effects of what he saw and a reluctance to go into detail on the most important matters. What he did have time for was to tell his audience time and time again how great Rav Elyashuv is and how important his mission was.

To that I add Rabbi Kaplan's shiur and we get yet more exaggerations, ridicule of idols and much about the 'gadlus' of Rav Elyashuv as if this is here the issue.

That such an important question affecting something so personal to hundreds of thousands of women and with such severe financial consequences to the sheitel trade was taken on such a flimsy investigation is astounding.

I doubt they would fix a rosh chodesh if these were the witnesses of a new moon.


תוקן על ידי - frummie - 06/06/2004 4:58:46



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