| נשלח ב-22/11/2005 22:56 |
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Can "t'lost tribe" be won by rationality
I came upon a news forum in yiddish and found a report titled "the lost tribe" over a book that features New Yorker hassidim who rejected the way they were educated. The forum being frum although internetian, belittles them as "bad apples", but as some know better, they usually are good souls that didn't have enough social success to keep them within the fold.
I know that some of those have rethought their decisions upon learning that Judaism is not necessarily so fundamentalist. I am not talking about "Atzor Geniuses", but about very average nice people who realized that although religion comes as a package deal, there is more than one package and that one can act quite socially kosher while thinking treyf (so to say).
This rational way has a double advantage. 1. One does not have to loose one's family and social connections even while learning from other societies. 2. One doesn't loose the positive moral effects of Judaism.
In the following notices, I will copy from the said forum.
תוקן על ידי - עצור_כאן - 24/11/2005 20:06:51
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| נשלח ב-2/2/2006 08:05 |
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I thank Ani for the book (Unchosen) which I just finished.
At the very end of the book, the writer expresses Yossi's (the main protagonist) wish to start a kind of neo-Hasidic society (or I would say neo-Haredi) that would maintain the great things of the original culture but without coercion, exclusion and ostracization. That suggestion goes in line with my intention when opening this cluster. Such an open society should revive the extensive and intensive judaic culture enabling it to flourish at its best. Also the ideal place for initiating such a revival should be here in New York. Since I am willing and somehow capable in helping Yossi's endeavour, but not knowing how to reach him and other interestees, I ask Hella Winston, Malkie Schwartz and the other protagonists, to please contact me here in my personal box (Teiva Ishit).
Here are some interesting points of discussion I gathered from the book:
On pages 12 and 113 the point is made how culture and specifically garments, influence religious identity in proportion to religious practice.
On page 54 there is the mention of not owning pets as a typical aspect of Haredi identity (an ongoing discussion in the hebrew atzor these days.)
תוקן על ידי - מנהלמשנה - 02/02/2006 22:21:49
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| נשלח ב-1/2/2006 23:07 |
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יש ספר דומה בעברית בשם: "לפרוץ מאה שערים" המבוסס על ראיונות עם עשרות יוצאים בשאלה, מאת שרית ברזילאי. לא ראיתי אותו עדיין אלא נודע לי על ידי חבר וירטואלי.
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| נשלח ב-13/1/2006 09:57 |
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Received in mail
Turning the Tables
I know it's been a while since I last posted. I don't have to tell you, but we kept on having our workweeks smashed up by Yomim Toivim popping up all over the place, and what with all the working, davening, cooking and travelling, there was no time for anything else.
Only three weeks ago it was Shabbos Shuvo, and I sat among the crowd listening to the drosho of the Rav. While they listened, I day-dreamed, I was miles away in fantasy land. I saw myself standing at the shtender, with all the town's Rabbonim seated at a long top table, along the ''Maariv vant''. Whilst the Rav waffled on about a Sukkah with crooked walls, I pondered over what I would have said to my imaginary assembled Rabbonim.
Chosheve Rabbonim!
There are those of us who claim that all of you only have your own self interests at heart. I am not that cynical and I do not believe that to be the case. I am sure that there are good people among you and that everything they do is well intentioned and for the good of the community. Unfortunately though, good intentions can only get one so far. Nobody is infallible, not you nor I. The difference is that when I err, I can be certain that somebody will point out to me where I have gone wrong. You on the other hand, surrounded by yes men, can do no wrong. Our "representatives" bring you their version of events and issues and based solely on their often warped perspective, you judge and rule, without ever hearing from a real person what the issues and feelings on the street really are. Regrettably and quite unlike you, those who have your ear do have their own agendas, usually the furtherance of the new form of Chassidishe intolerance. Hearing everything from them, you cannot be blamed for your deficiencies, and that is what I would like to put to you today. I'd like to explain to you what many of us really think. I'd like you to hear my feelings about you and your leadership, raw and unfiltered.
There will be those who will say that I am lacking in Kovod Hatorah. My response to them is, that just because somebody has received a degree from a fellow cryptanalyst, in deciphering what Rabbis of previous generations did or didn't mean, doesn't mean that he possesses common sense, nor does it mean he understands the challenges of today's world. Quite often, it means the reverse. Where a leader is unable to lead, then his speciality should be restricted to the field in which he specialises, be it in shades of red, the jingle of coins or the anatomy of livestock.
Some of you are multi talented, and those of you who are indeed special people, who truly care for our well-being, will listen to what I say despite my chutzpah and once you see things from a perspective which you have not seen previously, you might even agree that what I say, had to be said. You might even be grateful to me for opening your eyes.
Picture the scene. A grassy meadow in the middle of the countryside. It's a bright summers day and in the shade of a copse of trees sits a shepherd surrounded by a flock of sheep. While he sits, pipe in mouth, surrounded by docile balls of wool munching contentedly on the grass, on the fringes some are wondering off and others are being snatched by wolves. He sits there among the quiet ones, oblivious to the goings on at the periphery of the herd. The days go by and more and more sheep disappear. Before he realises what's happening only a few old or stupid sheep are left. The rest are long gone.
This brainless shepherd will blame the losses on the stragglers and the predators, and without a doubt, it is they who are directly responsible, but his job was to ensure that the entire flock were protected. His watching over the ones who were easy to handle whilst ignoring those on the fringes, was a dereliction of duty.
It pains me to say this to you venerated Rabbonim, but you are acting no different than the stupid shepherds. You fail to realise that those who listen to your every word, those who follow your every edict, they are the old and stupid sheep who stick to the safety of the middle of the herd. They will remain loyal and faithful no matter what. They plod mindlessly along the paths trodden by their Zidas and elter Ziades, and will continue doing so for eternity, many haven't the brains for much more. Many, though not all, will be successful in instilling the same mentality to their children who will go on serving their Rebbes, and sometimes G-d as well, with their parents' brand of thoughtless devotion.
But what about the stragglers, those who are a little more curious, those who nose about on the outskirts of the herd, who get close to the wolves? Do you watch over them? Can they look to you for direction? Do you provide them with any? The answer, I'm sorry to say is no.
They don't respect Rabbonim who spend their time wringing their hands in despair at the state of the current generation and harking back to the days when offices went clickety clack instead of beepety beep. The age old tradition of doing things because my Grandfather did it is slowly dieing out and many people think for themselves, and want answers. They need strong leaders, people they can look up to and respect. Rabbonim who confront head on the challenges of today's world instead of burying their heads in the sand and resorting to simplistic blocking manoeuvres, would command that respect. They would respect leaders who explain the ins and out of Yiddishkeit with reason instead of custom.
Those who congregate around you will always follow, but those who wonder off, they need leading, and in today's evermore materialistic world, more than ever. Do you think they want to fall into the jaws of their predators? Do you think they want to have to cope with children who are asking questions they (the parents) have not been taught the answers to? Do you think they want to have to deal with the trials and tribulations of today's fast paced life on their own? Don't you think they would like a non judgemental person with whom they can discuss anything which bothers them? Do you fill that role? Sadly, my experience tells me that from the top down, many of you are very judgemental. And don't you think they want some guidance? Don't you think they want to be led?
Chosheve Rabbonim! You might now be bristling with righteous indignation and mumbling "kovod Hatorah" into your beards, but you have to know this. Respect has to be earned, it is not a given. Of course we would not act disrespectfully to a Rav in public, out of kovod Hatorah, or more likely, fear of what people would think of us. But many of us do not look up to you, and things you say are rubbished and ridiculed. Why? Because you command no respect. Let me give one example as to why not. When a Rav bans orange ribbons without taking a second to think how his attention to minutia will be taken by his subjects, I'm afraid to say, it implies a significant lack of understanding of a huge part of his Kehilla. He claims to represent his entire community regardless of their Chassidic or otherwise leanings, and to his credit, endeavours to attend and to be seen at functions of all denominations, but at the end of the day he is a Chossid at heart, and is as prejudiced as the rest of them when it comes to judging others who don't share the exact same values and wear the same clothing as he. To him the ban made perfect sense, yet to others, not as extreme, it didn't add up at all. Furthermore, for people on the street, there were far more pressing issues which needed addressing, yet he remained (and still remains) nonchalantly silent on those matters. He failed to perceive this, and issued his banning order nonetheless. In doing so, he showed us how out of touch he is with the rest of us. Clearly, he is not our shepherd. He doesn't seem to know much about our wants and needs.
Rabbonim! You need to ensure that you do not lose those who need to be led. Ensure that they can look up to you as leaders, and that your words, when uttered, actually mean something and are taken seriously. When they have an issue which needs addressing, ensure that you give it the same importance as you give to the do-gooders who come to you insisting that you prevent families from going to Tashlich along with all their loved ones for the sake of the Love of the One Above. It's up to you to stop the relentless slide down the path of extremism, which shuns those who dare be slightly different, as if they were lepers. I beg you, I implore you, to please, please, please be like the king who used to mingle with his subjects incognito, so as to see what things were like at the coal face. Ignore the hangers-on who impose on you their version of the towns' problems and pressing issues. Listen to the people on the street directly. Understand that we live in the real world and that none of today's ''yetzer horahs'' as you call them are going away anytime soon. They are here and are here to stay. Deal with them and the issues they raise, but stop pretending that you can drag us back in time by 50 years. The year is 2005 and the clock cannot be turned back. Help us deal with today.
And for goodness sake, stop wringing your hands in that defeatist manner.
Most of what we do is because that is how we have been programmed. When our programmer is tampered with, even slightly, we've no idea how to set it again. Don't we need to be able to carry out our own maintenance, should we not be taught how to? The best time for this education is when we are young. Which brings me on to the issue of Chinnuch. Our kids are all sent to Chassidishe Chadorim. They are infused with the Love of G-d, the joy of life and the ways in which we express our unending gratitude to our Father in Heaven for the good He Gives us.
But shock of shocks, surprises of surprises, what do I hear children saying? "That's not what they teach me in my cheder!". "What?!" I ask incredulously, "really not?". A resounding ''No'' is the answer.
Love? That word doesn't exist in Chassidishe lexicon. Gratitude? Neither. Joys of life? Joys of Chassidus more like. There is almost no teaching of how lucky we are to be able to keep Shabbos. No explaining of how a forced break of one day a week, helps us slow down, and recharge our batteries, emotionally as well as spiritually. No mention of how lucky we are to be able to keep kosher when we are out and about. In town, it's no big deal, there's enough kosher stuff in the shops to satisfy anybody, but when you are on a shopping expedition, or on a Chol Hamoed excursion, and you smell the wonderful smell of roasting sausages and you then go and munch your slightly squashed sandwiches, you are actually doing more of a mitzvah than when you eat the same slice of bread in the comfort of your kitchen at home. The education they give our children about kashrus is "if it hasn't got a super duper very expensive hechsher from Rabbi Heise Farbrenter Chossid, don't bring it to cheder", or "Feh! chazer trief!". Why are our children not being taught the basics? Why do they come home full of naarishkeiten about this, that and the other Chassidishe claptrap, yet they do not know the meaning of brochos? Why is it that when they jump up and down and scream the pizmonim in between the hakoffos on Simchos Torah, all they have in mind are the sweets they will get for screaming, running, jumping or dancing the best? Never mind them not knowing the translation of any of the words they are yelling, but could their Rebbes not have at least taught them the gist of the main pizmonim? I overheard one ''holy man'' tell a father on Simchas Torah during Hoaderes Vohoemunoh to go and ''pump emunoh into his children''. The dad could have yelled ''Lechai Ho'oilomim'' with the little rascals until he was blue in the face, and would have pumped nothing more than smelly sweat into an already smelly Shul, for the kids didn't have a bloody clue what they were yelling. All they knew was that for once they could be as wild as they wanted, were having a great time and were getting loads of teeth smashing sweets.
If our children are not taught the basics, how to love G-d and why He means so much to us, what chance have they got when they step outside the walls of their schools and yeshivos and meet the "temptations" of the street? When they are taught that absolutely everything goyish is bad and nasty and when they realise as they grow older that this is not always the case, they begin to suspect that perhaps other stuff they have been taught might not be true either. When they are taught that the only way to serve G-d is through Chassidus and they then observe Chassidim behaving in ways which belie that claim, it's no wonder that some then go on to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
In the 90's the Conservative Party had a infamous campaign slogan, of "Back to Basics". Notwithstanding the ill fatedness of that slogan in the years of John Major's Premiership, I firmly believe it's a slogan we need to adopt when it comes to educating our children. Back to Basics!
And, dear Rabbonim, I mention this to you because it is in your power to change the way our mechanchim educate our children. The likes of me are paid no heed. Perhaps you can raise these points at your next chinnuch meeting. To you they might listen.
Rabbonim, please listen to the voices of those who are falling or are being pushed to the wayside, and hear their silent pleas to be included instead of excluded, and remove the scourge of the abominated form of Chassidism which is creeping into every aspect of our daily lives and showing signs of taking over completely, it's vicious tentacles slashing and slicing at the slightest show of incomplete alliance to it's cause. Do you not see the damage being done by the exclusionism being directed at our fellow Yidden?
You are good men, and we still have a little faith in you.
Show us that you understand.
Show us that you can lead.
Show us that you care.
Suddenly the sounds of ''Shekoyach! Shekoyach!'' brought me back to reality, and my daydream came to an abrupt end. With perfect timing, the Rav had finished his drosho. I went over and thanked him too, but not for the same reasons as everybody else. I thanked him for this blog posting. He didn't have a clue what I was on about.
# posted by Frummer? @ 11/01/2005 13 comments
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| נשלח ב-9/12/2005 16:58 |
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Dear Hasid,
Here is a typical illustration of the "אדם בביתך ויהודי בצאתך" saying.
Linksetzer has put the following link in the hebrew Atzor: http://dhengah.org/
There it says in Yiddish that you should immediately listen to the Rabbis and close the "tame, treyf and stinky" internet. Then it says that if you don't care about it; and in english it says if you don't understand Yiddish; then "click here".
I had a discussion on the subject with one of our friends, which I copy herewith.
Sachliel: To many this site is a plain joke or it illustrates Haredi hypocrisy. But to me it is a concretization of the developement of Halacha.
Friend: Developement?
Sachliel: Yes indeed. On one hand one zealotously screams at the internet in order to be "yotze" the "Yehudi betzetecha", but on the other hand one clicks on and remain "Adam bebeitecha".
Friend: This is not a developement of halacha, but "realpolitic".
Sachliel: Realpolitic is what halacha is all about. This means to be a "Yehudi betzetecha"! This is a means of educational self-discipline derived from one's social belonging!
Friend: To say that something is forbidden and to transgress it, is a plain desecration of halacha. It is like taking a kashrut stamp and stamping it on bacon.
Sachliel: No. We talk here about something which is not totally forbidden, but it does have a negative and dangerous aspect. In order to take care of that, one has to remember that the internet is not fully "tchelet" but that it also has a lot of blue. By stopping at the sharp notice before clicking, one does not go deliberately further, but one first pay attention to the internet danger.
Friend: It is like cleaning the table before starting to work.
Sachliel: Indeed. In the consciousness of the necessity to clean first, lies the educational point.
תוקן על ידי - שכליאל - 09/12/2005 17:06:32
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| נשלח ב-27/11/2005 20:08 |
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Dear Hasid,
It is indeed a pun used long ago in the hebrew atzor and even having a cluster named by it*. The idea is that religion ought to be an educational tool. A tool given as a standard for a whole nation as such, can never be tailored exactly for each individual. However, in order not to loose the system, the individual tailoring has to remain a most private matter. Now after seeing Ani's arguments about critical thinking in the neighboring cluster, it becomes more understandable.
*
היה יהודי בצאתך ואדם באהלך (שאלת מנלן לווטו)
http://hydepark.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?topic_id=628891
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| נשלח ב-25/11/2005 21:49 |
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Sachliel dear,
I have noticed you using earlier the phrase ''יהודי בצאתך ואדם באוהליך'', is this a mistake or is it a pun on Mendelson's *שר"י mantra of ''יהודי באוהליך
ואדם בצאתך''?
* שר"י of course, being גירסא דינקותא…
תוקן על ידי - hasid_emes - 25/11/2005 21:52:58
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| נשלח ב-25/11/2005 08:34 |
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Thanks again!
I read a little the rechosen blog which you linked above. She writes beautifully, clevely and elegantly and besides she does quite a good job in balancing emotions by showing that not everything is black and white or good apple versus rotten apple.
She seems to be managing well the adage of "Yehudi betzetek'ha veAdam beoholek'ha". However, I failed to notice if she deals with the everyday detailed conflicts of her subjects. Davening or not? Keeping kosher and how far? etc... For since in the way of life she projects there has to be a healthy combination between one's religious adherence and personal convictions and that is what makes tose people's top blow off. I guess we should invite sheitel to share with us her attitude in the daily conflicts.
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| נשלח ב-25/11/2005 07:18 |
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תוקן על ידי - hasid_emes - 25/11/2005 7:17:48
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| נשלח ב-24/11/2005 20:05 |
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Dear Hasid,
Thanks!
In Malkie Schwartz's article she mentions "footsteps" as a help organization. I have heard the name mentioned before and I am trying to find out more about it. Do you have a link or some other helpful information about it?
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| נשלח ב-24/11/2005 17:28 |
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Before the war people drove away in throngs. The survivors, both spiritually and physically, created a ghetto in which to hide any outside influence. It worked. Look around you.
Ani 
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| נשלח ב-24/11/2005 04:06 |
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| נשלח ב-23/11/2005 11:35 |
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What did you mean by: "ensured stability where their grandparents failed."?
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| נשלח ב-23/11/2005 11:34 |
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Dear Hasid,
I am indeed talking about staying and knowing how to be a "adam beoholek'ha v'yehudi betzetek'ha".
Although I hope that you are wrong about the pace of the evolution (not revolution) I must admit that you are probably right unless some unexpected occurence happens (who knows).
However, I do think that it is enough for a few such "choshvim" to be closely befriended in order to be socially sound. As I understand, there are already such kind of nucleuses and I think that you know whom to ask.
Concerning kids' education, with some serious thought given to the matter, it seems that it could be achieved. Here is something that one of the serious atzorninkim has written in private, seemingly from his own educational experience, which I know personally to have worked for several families.
וזה לשונו:
עיקר החינוך אינו מילולי, אלא תחושתי, ולזה נעזר במילים מתאימות, אך מילים שאינם מתנגשות עם ההקשר החברתי, אלא נותנות חשיבות -פרופורציה- שונה.
ילד שישמע -
העיקר לעשות את מה שנכון.
שבת מזכיר לנו שאנחנו לא יכולים לעשות הכל, ואנחנו לא מרכז העולם.
אנחנו צריכים לשמור על כל דבר בבריאה, הכל זה חשוב, הכל זה חלק מבריאת ה'.
אנחנו מזכירים לעצמנו שאנחנו העם הנבחר שעושה את מה שאמת בכל דבר, וד' שחותמו אמת מורה את האמת....
יש כאן בריאה גדולה, הכל זה השם, אנחנו גם חלק מהשם, וכדי לדעת מה השם רוצה, אנחנו צריכים לראות מה הוא רצה בבריאה, ולשמור על רצונו, על העצים, על בני האדם... השם נתן לנו שכל כדי שנבין מה הוא רוצה, ובגלל שהשכל שלנו לא תמיד יודע לבד מספיק כמו שאברהם אבינו ידע, השם נתן לנו תורה...
ובתמיכת ההמחשה העצמית, שתשומת הלב העיקרית לחיות נכון, ולא יושם דגש כבד מדאי על ריצוי הא-ל, או על כל דבר שהילד תופס אותו מיסטית, יכוונו אותו לחיי אמת.
וכל זה ללא אמירה מפורשת המנגדת לתפיסה החברתית.
_______________
ההנחה שלי, שעם כל מה שהחברה משרישה, האופן בו הדברים מתקבלים בבית, והיחס שניתן לדברים לעומת ערכים נכונים יותר [המודגשים פחות בחברה ויודגשו יותר בבית] יתנו לדברים הקשר של "חשיבות" נכון יותר, ובקלות הילד יוכל לקבל את העמדות הנכונות מייד בגיל צעיר, ובהמשך לבטל השפעות קלות מאי הפרופורציה באמונה החברתית.
תוקן על ידי - שכליאל - 23/11/2005 11:36:05
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| נשלח ב-23/11/2005 02:31 |
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Your points are true but will never happen, at least not in a long time. Let me explain why.
I imagine you to be a disenchanted Chusid, perhaps you're known for your provocative ideas and thoughts. But, I highly doubt that your kids will get higher education, job, and family, in this prescribed order. In fact, if your kids go to Yeshiva, there's no way that they can know your true feelings about Judaism or heaven knows how mixed up they could become. How will your own rational transmit itself to your offspring before they are married and it is too late?
Most people who leave are either not married or have some other issues that caused them to divorce and thus free of a personal constraint. Rarely does one see a family leave Judaism. You might want to retort that you are not talking about leaving, but staying in Williamsburg and changing the system slowly but surely. However, it will never happen because the social pressure is much too strong. What ends up happening is that only a few leave and they are the ones who would be troublemakers elsewhere too. at least this is the case with the majority of the rebels.
And it is those guys who don't care much about the moral aspects of Judaism anyway. The positive aspects of it are connoted with food or some superficial stimulant that has nothing to do with the original idea that Judaism bases itself upon.
Therefore, the conclusion must be that things will not shake up for a really long time. Somehow this very system that we all so decry ensured stability where their grandparents failed.
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