I can't take responsibility on this statement as to its accuracy. Does anyone know if it's true?
תוקן על ידי - hasid_emes - 25/11/2005 22:11:03
נשלח ב-5/12/2005 03:07
By the way, I like way Veto is explaining my explanations on his explanations of things.
A lot of explaining going on here thats for sure.
נשלח ב-5/12/2005 02:28
Hasid,
It's not that I systematically took the Mitzvoth or beliefs of the Torah and one by one tried to rationalize it or something.
There are these few main concepts that after alot of thinking (critical thinking, honestly and without fear of the conclusions) I have formulated certain concepts in my mind.
Again it's is not that I'm trying to 'Farentfer' anything.
So I don't really have a whole belief system worked out.
Yet strangely enough whenever an issue or question pops up it doesnt seem so insurmountable.
נשלח ב-5/12/2005 02:12
Veto,
Thanks for explaining it. I was going to ask, at which point did those views end and out Mesorah start, but you negated that.
I still think that this belief merits a discussion. But before that we need to know what are discussing.
Thanks for the test, did you get my response?
נשלח ב-5/12/2005 00:29
Hasid,
There is one thing which is important in order to understand Ani's propositions. The former generations were behind in the sophistication of their expressions. They were more intuitive than verbal. Therefore delving into the positiveness of ancient Judaism is merely to discover what intuition of justice did they have. But furthermore, as long as we can derive good results from their words, why shouldn't we even if they did not necessarily have them in mind. It is like in the judiciary system where one puts interpretations in old terms although knowing that it probably was never meant.
I sent you a test.
נשלח ב-4/12/2005 22:14
Ani dear,
If I understood you correctly, you have a belief system totally unlike the one we were brought up with. it sounds like something you worked hard on understanding and even finding proof of it in the writings of our rebbes from way past, way beyond our Mesorah. I thought that you should put it down for us to see and debate it before we can come up with questions in regards to its validity.
(As an aside, it seems that my תיבה אישית is not working properly. Does anyone care to send me a test?)
נשלח ב-29/11/2005 01:09
Hasid,
I don't know what type of Eshkol you suggest I open. If it's ok with you I would ask you to open the eshkol so that we can discuss the issues you find important.
נשלח ב-28/11/2005 03:23
I have no reservations dear Ani, I can just repeat myself that this whole concept of Judaism being a clever way into submitting a nation into a moral society is too forging for me. And yes, everything you say makes sense.
It might be helpful if you can open a separate ''eshkol'' to discuss exactly what this belief entails for I have many questions that I would be delighted in having clarified.
Btw, I distinctively remember from my visit in the Pennsylvania Dutch-land that the drop-out rate of the boys are about 15% and only 1% of the girls*--altogether a mere 8%. Seemingly, the rate in our circles is considerably less.
* this can make an interesting theory on why the girls tend to stick to their base more than the boys, but we have to know more about them and the social standings the women have there to fully understand it.
נשלח ב-27/11/2005 22:37
Hasid,
Thanks for the compliment,
Please go ahead and tell me your reservations on my above point. Do you feel that it's just me rationalizing to ease my discomfort about it? I don't think so, I have no problem saying that it's totally wrong to prohibit one from thinking for themselves, I just find that it's not so simple.
A few quick points here,
1- It's very likely that the underlying reason is more about the mentality of yore, where the masses were considered almost as chattal, where most people hardly new how to read let alone write. The concept of an aristrocratic elite had much more merit then than now. [Even the electoral system here in the states, where the people actually vote for electors who in turn vote for a certain candidate. is also due to the mistrust our founding fathers had in the masses, they were afraid of mob rule.
It may well be that in today's day and age where the literacy rate is so high, hence the faculty of critcal thiinking is much healthier, we (the hypothetical leaders) would totally open the way for anyone to think freely.
2- The Amish give for each teenager a year or two for them to explore the outside world and decide if they want to stay in the 'fold' or go out to the secular world. I seem to remember that the desertion rate is very low. which again points in the direction of actully allowing for free unhindered critical thinking, and not to be so concerned that there will be all kind of crazy results.
Again I'm looking at it both ways and yes I for one am totally open.
What about you?
נשלח ב-27/11/2005 19:48
Ani and Hasid, let me tell you about it in the lost tribe cluster where I "owe" you an answer.
נשלח ב-27/11/2005 18:56
Ani,
You certainly worked on creating a path in Judaism and relentlessly follow it through each obstacle. Which is great, really. I'm still set in the narrow-minded version of Judaism called ''mesorah'' and have quite the troubling time reprogramming to these ideas. But, I'm glad that you make sense, I give you that. Perhaps one day I'll be deprogrammed…
נשלח ב-27/11/2005 18:48
Tzuriel,
You ask where to draw the line, who can be considered elite and who is part of the masses. Good question, I fully agree on the limitations on an approach of totally prohibiting critical thinking, my question to Hasid and now to you is how do we set some quidelines so as to alleviate your concerns yet without letting the whole of society run amok with all kind of crazy, maybe scarey and dangerous, philosophies?
Here's a thought,
The Rambam I mentioned above (along with all the other Jewish philosophers) that prohibit critical thinking is really very hard to understand. For if one questions שמא הוא שמא אינו or questions the whole kit and caboodle asking if תורה מן השמים then how do you think he will logically obey your prohibition on him questioning such? He will logically just answer you " Please understand that at this point I am not convinced in your authority over me in telling me what to do "
It seems like an oxymoron, telling a person who doesnt believe in your authority that he has to believe because you say so.
The answer may well be that for people not really intellectually capable to think critically this last force of authority will ward off their slight inclination of rebelling agains authority, by being very explicit about them 'not being allowed' to think, they are scared off from going there. Now those people really are the very same people who we as hypothetical leaders wouldn't want them to think critically, People who can be bamboozeled into a certain direction by an illogical statement (an oxymoron, as above) shouldn't be thinking critically for they'll arrive to no good their conclusions will be based on whim not on strong critical analysis, they are not ready yet.
It is only those people who jump over this fence of prohibition, those people who do not accept the authority of the place they were born into by some illogical prohibition, those people are intellectually sound, those people will not become racist or facist by hearing a good rhetorical speech or by some other illogical persuasive power.
Those are the people the Rambam made his Sefer Hamoreh in which he writes very differently than what he wrote in Sefer Hayad.
נשלח ב-27/11/2005 09:43
Dear Ani
.Thanks for clarifying that
On your post about the problems with critical thinking you bring out a good point about not allowing the masses to think. yet you start with this quote "I for one am all about critical thinking" you also quote the rambam that one is not allowed to question certain assumptions that he made regarding תורה משמים, now let me ask you who is allowed to think and who isn't? the rambam himself was quite the thinker,so who says that this person is from the masses and the other person is from the elite so he is allowed to make the rules that you aren't allowed to criticize, also the people that decided the jewish faith lived a couple of thousand years ago so what was ethical at that time could be immoral at this day and age.
Lets take for example slavery, it was something that was accepted until lately but its outlawed today, even if what you say that there should be an elite that decides what's ethical and what isn't shouldn't each generation be authorized to choose who should make the rules
תוקן על ידי - Tzuriel13 - 27/11/2005 9:48:12
נשלח ב-27/11/2005 09:14
Tzuriel, Yet there is one type of critical thinking that is absolutely NOT taught while learning Gemara, to be ready to criticize the accepted norm. We are actually indoctrinated to never question, let alone criticize authority, and that is the critical thinking which Hasid has quoted here.
נשלח ב-27/11/2005 09:07
By the way Critical thinking is something that's actually done too much with the Gemurah that's why when you tell something to a Jewish audience each person will have a different opinion its something that a gemurah kup excels at
נשלח ב-27/11/2005 04:46
Dear Hasid,
I'm sure your question is about thinking critically in relation to religious creed.
There is a Rambam in Hilchos Avodah Zorah where he seems to be saying that one is not allowed to think on God שמא הוא שמא אינו or שמא תורה לאו משמים.
The same is true about many many Poskim and even Jewish Philosophers of note.
Before we go ahead and condemn it carte blanke, let's see what we would do.
Now let me clear the air here, I for one am all about critical thinking (that is my way of life, for the good or the better).
But the question is what is if hypothetically we are given over the leadership of a nation how are we going to guide the masses? Are we going to tell them to go ahead and think for themsleves? What will the results be? Anarchy for some, Fascism for some, Racism for others, and so on. for after all if we leave everyone up to their own devices there will be all kinds of conclusions.
Here in our Malchus Shel Chesed if a poor homeless guy breaks in to a multi-milionare's house and steals a few thousand dollars he goes to prison for a few years, but wait, how about his critcal thinking has made him conclude that it's totally moral that he should steal from this super rich guy so that he should have some basic life needs?
You would argue that there is a difference between thinking for your self versus acting out and living according to your conclusions. Yet the only rationale for this distinction is that once you're encroaching someone elses rights We step in and force you to act according to what we have found to be the right way of action.
Now this is all nice and dandy when talking about a civil system i.e. a system where our only concern is to make sure that we don't rob each other from their respective rights. But in system where we are just as much interested in your own wellbeing where there is a true interest in making sure that you do the right thing in the privacy of your own home or own mind for that matter, then why should we not curtail your rights for critical thinking just as much as it is curtailed here in relation to acting it out?
Would you allow critical thinking for 12 year olds?
As a matter of fact our civil system here doesn't allow one to take medicated drugs for the sake of getting high, although it's between you and yourself. Or how about the requirement to wear seatbelts for our own protection.
So the question remains where do we draw the line on allowing one to be free to think and or act according to one's conviction?
So again I ask you how you would you set the rule on critical thinking?
Remember also that the only tool we have as hypothetical leaders is shaping the mind of the nation we are leading, For we don't have a police force to enforce our rules.
Also please note that we the leaders happen to have philosophised a lot and have concluded on a certain "right" way of life. i.e. lets say that we have seen the truth in the requirement in ethical behavior for all.
and Hasid, let me tell you about it in the lost tribe cluster where I "owe" you an answer.
