Displaying the first 23 replies to this news story
...
Posted by: James the Lesser
On: Fri June, 18 2004 @ 10:28 GMT
Holy Mother and Father of Pebble People, the terrorists have lost? They have given up? The terrorists have finally figured out that for every Israel civillian they kill they will lose a terrorist leader. They have lost! Yes! Finally! Celebrate good times people, the terrorists have lost this battle, now hopefully the others will lose to.
Posted by: Djarums
On: Fri June, 18 2004 @ 10:36 GMT
The sad thing here is that it is the Palestinians who end up suffering the most due to their own leadership.
Think of this for a moment:
What would have happened if Arafat had accepted Barak's offer? You know... the offer quoted above in the article. That offer contained more than Sharon's current plan. Similar to both Gaza went completely to the new Palestinian state, and in fact Barak's plan had more of the West Bank included than Sharon's does. So what did the refusal get Arafat? As far as one can see all it got him was hundreds if not thousands of his own people blowing themselves up. It's gotten him retaliations from Israel which tragically lead to civilian deaths too.
So why did Arafat reject an offer which even gave him a chunk of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount too!?!?
Because he doesn't want that. He wants the whole thing period. He wants there to be no Israel at all. Not in the pre-1967 borders, not in the 1948 borders, nothing. That is a losing proposition and he refuses to accept that. It's unfortunate that so much power is in this man's hands. There have been others involved in Palestinian government who have shown interest in negotiating by they are always rendered irrelevant by Arafat. It's just sad because it's not necessary.
Had Arafat accepted Barak's deal there would've been a state of Palestine already. That state would've had all of Gaza, 95% of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and FULL CONTROL over the holy sites on the temple mount.
What a shame.
Posted by: worldwatcher
On: Fri June, 18 2004 @ 10:51 GMT
Isn't this a little too quick to declare a conclusive victory....sorry to say it, but i don't see this as being over, it may be some time before another attack, but it will happen.
Posted by: Echtelion
On: Fri June, 18 2004 @ 11:10 GMT
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The intifada began in September 2000 after Arafat refused the offer by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THAT IS A LIE! :flame:
That meeting between Barak, Arafat and Clinton did'nt had any direct repercussions on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict AT ALL!!!
It's Ariel Sharon who started the second Intifada! You want fact? On september the 28th, Ariel Sharon showed up in person right in the "Esplanade of the Mosques" in Jerusalem -all along with his personal bodyguards- right in the middle of hundreds of Palestinian Muslims. That had the obvious effect of starting a massive riot of Palestinian mens, the intervention of Israeli troops to quell the riot, and the whole thing ended with the much mediatized murder of a Palestinian young boy, shot by a few Israeli soldiers. This is where the second Intifada started.
So you still think Arafat started the whole violence by refusing to negociate with the Israeli State? Then tell me, why is it that he wilfully showed up to a meeting with Shimon Peres on November the 1st, which purpose was to find a mutual solution to end the violence???
There's been one last meeting between Clinton, Arafat and Peres in January, and this was the meeting that had an inconclusive result, not the one in September! Clinton had to stop trying as he was about to give his seat to Bush Jr, who, on his part, took like one year to do anything concrete in Israel.
What you wrote here is rubbish... You are distorting an historical FACT. Either you do it on purpose, or you're just not on the right track and misleaded by some partisan news article.
The second Intifada, even if it could have been conditionned by the conclusion of the Camp David meeting, was started by Ariel Sharon and the Likoud, and it's Ariel Sharon himself, as soon as he got in power, that supported the continuation of the violence by sending his troops to attack Palestinian civilians with tanks and missiles, and refusing to stop the expansion of Israeli colonies, at the same time. Ariel Sharon is a criminal! Is that so hard to believe?
Posted by: Djarums
On: Fri June, 18 2004 @ 11:17 GMT
Hi, allow me to introduce you to something called fact. Fact tells you that Jews have a holy site on the temple mount also. I'm sure you're not saying that Sharon ignited the Intifade and caused the death of thousands by visit his OWN religion's holy site right?
It's almost funny that you ignore the fact that Arafat sends his people (particularly kids) to their own deaths while he continues a futile attempt to get the Israelis to agree to leave the entire middle east. And instead you blame it all on a visit to a Jewish site by a Jewish prime minister. Allow me the privelege of subscribing to whatever newspaper you get your facts from. Lord knows it might be VERY interesting.
Posted by: TurtleTrooper
On: Fri June, 18 2004 @ 11:39 GMT
Who would have ever thought that not letting your enemy overrun you, and retalitory strikes would work (<-sarcastic). To bad some people on this side of the ocean cant snap out of their fantsy world and realize that.
Posted by: Duke_Nukem
On: Fri June, 18 2004 @ 11:46 GMT
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Echtelion
It's Ariel Sharon who started the second Intifada! You want fact? On september the 28th, Ariel Sharon showed up in person right in the "Esplanade of the Mosques" in Jerusalem -all along with his personal bodyguards- right in the middle of hundreds of Palestinian Muslims.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Right, how dare a Jew show up to one of their own sites where they can be seen by Muslims. At this point in time I have no sympathy for the Palestinians, not after watching them cheer for 9/11, not after watching them dress up babies as suicide bombers, not after watching them cheer for suicide bombers and not if they use the mere sight of a Jew as justification for the intifada.
If this is what it takes I hope the US does the same thing, identify a terrorist and take them out on sight.
Posted by: mbkennel
On: Fri June, 18 2004 @ 12:56 GMT
But his politically motivated opportunistic grandstanding should have been met by an equivalent noisy, yet peaceful, demonstration by his opponents.
Instead, it was met by weeks and months of violent rioting, which included trained armed men among the stone throwers. And then when that didn't """work""", vile mass-murder bombings.
Quite a number of which killed ARABS (Israeli) as well as Jews. Did the bombers care?
No, in fact there is some evidence that they intentionally did this because they want to punish Arabs too for "daring" to be friendly with Jews instead of wanting to exterminate them.
Before Camp David and Taba, my sentiments were 50/50. I thought Arafat was being obnoxious at times, and so was Netanyahu. I figured it was all political B.S. and maneuvering for leverage before the serious negotiations were going to happen. Barak was elected, and he, along with Bill Clinton, offered an unprecedented and, given the history, exceptionally generous settlement. Full soverieignty in Gaza and most of West bank, and as an added bonus, some land now presently part of pre-1967 Israel.
There was no counter-offer by the Palestinean side---what could there be other than
erasing Israel from the map? Even to this day the Fatah constitution still calls for total extinction of "zionism" as a political and cultural entity by armed struggle. This is a barely concealed order for genocide.
Some people (almost all European leftists) have proposed that there not be a "state of Israel" but an even more religiously divided "palestine" including both territories where both the Arabs and Jews had equal rights and votes. That's a total crock of course, as the moment it happens there would be a violent pogrom against the Jews. (That's why they wanted Israel to begin with). If that were the radicals' desired solution, they would go out of the way to say "We only have a problem with Zionism politically, we want a different political system so we can live with Jews with equal rights and peacefully."
So, when was the last fiery imam who gave a sermon saying that?
Hmmmmm????
Rather they fill their airwaves and newspapers with the most vile anti-Jewish bigotry seen since the Third Reich, such as calling Jews "sons of pigs and monkeys" and things like that.
Inside Israel, there are a number of Arab communities who DO want that, and they do get along reasonably well with Jews. OF course they want a settlement for the Palestineans as well, but they aren't interested in mass murder as opposed to getting jobs and sending their children to school.
Notice what isn't in the reverse---any significant Jewish minority doing well in a dominantly Arab or Muslim state. In 1948, there were 150,000 Jews living in Baghdad, of all places, where they had been for more than 2,500 years. Now? Virtually zero, except a tiny number of very elderly who are too old and poor to go anywhere. And they have to keep so in secrecy.
There must be a reason for that.
Golda Meir was right: "peace will come when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us."
Edited by TC for vulgarity.
[edit on 19-6-2004 by Thomas Crowne]
Posted by: HowardRoark
On: Fri June, 18 2004 @ 13:55 GMT
To quote myself
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by HowardRoark
Just a follow up.
Up to now, at least, it seems that the tactic of targeting the leadership is working.
Or at least until the Hamas gets a smarter leader. ;)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread44278/pg3
Posted by: k33l
On: Fri June, 18 2004 @ 14:03 GMT
Palestina libera, Palestina rossa!!!!
Posted by: Netchicken
On: Fri June, 18 2004 @ 14:07 GMT
Heh, good news at alst from the Arab Israeli conflict, the only solution seems to be to exterminate the terrorists.
I don't think I have ever seen a people make so many wrong moves as a "nation", Backing the wrong people, fighting the wrong wars, alienating the wrong powers. They are the authors of their own demise...
Posted by: Yog the Sloth
On: Fri June, 18 2004 @ 14:41 GMT
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by James the Lesser
The terrorists have finally figured out that for every Israel civillian they kill they will lose a terrorist leader. They have lost! Yes! Finally!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but contempt for people who attempt to make political points by killing innocent civilians.
I do however feel obliged to point out that for every Israeli civilian that Palestinian terrorists kill they also lose 3.5 Palestinian civilians. That is to say, over the course of the second Entifada, Israeli troops have killed over three and a half thousand Palestinian civilians.
In one of their first 'targeted bombings', they dropped a one ton bomb on a civilian area at night when people were sleeping. This attack did kill its target, but at the same time, it killed another seven civilians, including four children. For this reason, I am obliged to hold the Israeli leadership in the similar contempt. I quite understand that many of you will view this response as 'weak', or 'caving in to terrorism' but I simply do not believe that it is possible to make the world better by doing bad things. This holds just as true for states as it does for paramilitary organisations.
To conclude, I would like to reaffirm that I do believe that Israeli citizens have the right to live without fear, and that this has been accomplished is positive. That it has been accomplished by crushing the Palestinians under foot is the part which I cannot abide.:(
[edit on 18-6-2004 by Yog the Sloth]
Posted by: ME
On: Fri June, 18 2004 @ 15:51 GMT
Correct me if I am wrong, buuuuuuut . . . . Are not Jews Palestinian by law of the land?
What I mean is, Jews and Palestinians are Brother and Sister, eh?
The Land of Palestine, is what it was and Jerusalem was a 'lil city in the middle, no?
Go back religiously, and I bet ya' find that the Jews presided in the land of Palestine . . .
Posted by: raven2012
On: Sat June, 19 2004 @ 09:27 GMT
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Palestinian intifada is over
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If this is true, then why do we hear nothing about it. It's not as if this is some mediocre event, and unfortunatly it would be a good thing for GWB as well.
Could it be that making this news mainstream would only inflame the Palestinian's and once again escalate the situation?
I dunno, but these are some substantial statements that seem too imposible to keep under wraps. I wouldn't consider it over until a formal agreement is signed between the 2 sides. This could be a mere lull in the war, though I agree the Israelis have made significant progress.
-raven
[edit on 19-6-2004 by raven2012]
Posted by: earthtone
On: Sat June, 19 2004 @ 09:38 GMT
I just pity the everyday Palestinian people, and the Jewish who suffer their attacks also, its so sad to see so much killing caused by A) religion B) the west.
Posted by: ShiftTrio
On: Sat June, 19 2004 @ 10:23 GMT
By the West?... :mad: Its the arab nations who have used the Palestians for there political agenda in the name of Allah.. THey could have had a State right next to Israel ? How was it the west.
Explain Dont Blame.
I felt like Johnny Cocraine for a moment there
Posted by: Netchicken
On: Sat June, 19 2004 @ 14:31 GMT
Yog if you want to go down the road of "who is the best at killing innocent civilians, then then look at the Suicide bomber last year who targeted a bus of school children coming home from a trip and killed 19, injures over 40 (from memory). How sadistic can you get? He had to have consciously decided to blow himself up in the bus and deliberatly targeted children, no accident or extenuating circumstances there...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Yog the Sloth
In one of their first 'targeted bombings', they dropped a one ton bomb on a civilian area at night when people were sleeping. This attack did kill its target, but at the same time, it killed another seven civilians, including four children. For this reason, I am obliged to hold the Israeli leadership in the similar contempt.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by: Hoaks
On: Sat June, 19 2004 @ 15:15 GMT
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by raven2012
If this is true, then why do we hear nothing about it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe because the "news" article was based on a opinion(/editorial) article, from a collumnist (Charles Krauthammer) at The Washington Post.
[edit on 19-6-2004 by Hoaks]
Posted by: HOVA
On: Sat June, 19 2004 @ 15:32 GMT
There is no way such a huge confict between two groups could end over night. This was one of the biggest conflicts of our time, and now its over? This is complete crap i say, and it could be calming a bit, but over? There is no way in hell it is over.
Posted by: dbates
On: Sat June, 19 2004 @ 15:56 GMT
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hoaks
Maybe because the "news" article was based on a opinion(/editorial) article, from a columnist (Charles Krauthammer) at The Washington Post.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True, but I've had this feeling for a week or two. The Israelis have the situation under their control. That is not opinion, it is fact. Israel is calling all of the shots now. This isn't in the news because news channels don't like to talk about good things. They only like to mention beheadings, bombings, and scandal. Whens the last time you heard a story about boy scouts helping clean up a park? Good news evidently doesn't get good ratings.
Posted by: Djarums
On: Sat June, 19 2004 @ 16:00 GMT
It was an editorial. Relax folks no one is saying that Krauthammer's views are solid fact. K33l, was that supposed to mean something?
dbates, unless someone is killed in a horrriffic way and it will get viewers, no one will watch
[edit on 6-19-2004 by Djarums]
Posted by: Yog the Sloth
On: Sun June, 20 2004 @ 14:00 GMT
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Netchicken
Yog if you want to go down the road of "who is the best at killing innocent civilians, then then look at the Suicide bomber last year who targeted a bus of school children coming home from a trip and killed 19, injures over 40 (from memory). How sadistic can you get? He had to have consciously decided to blow himself up in the bus and deliberatly targeted children, no accident or extenuating circumstances there...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I quite agree, such behaviour is reprehensible, sadistic, inexcusable, immoral, and fundamentally wrong. But my point that 3500 Palestinians (or thereabouts) have died in comparison to 1000 Israeli's remains valid. None of these people should have died. It is true that every suicide bombing kills more innocents than any individual Israeli attack. But at the same time, the Palestinians have lost 3.5 times as many innocents as the Israelis, and all of these people should have had a chance at life. While I rejoice at the fact that Israeli's are able to live without fear, this has been accomplished by killing large numbers of people. I would have thought that we were able to agree that this in itself is a cause for sadness. It has been accomplished by destroying people's homes, which again, we ought to regret at least a little.
And we must still account for the fact that the Palestinians have suffered a greater loss of life than the Israeli's. My suspicion would be that these are the victims who have been caught in crossfire, children who have been gunned down for throwing rocks. That such violence occurs should be clearly highlighted by the fact that Israeli troops were willing to shoot an American peace worker for having the gall to stand in front of a military bulldozer. These are also acts of sadism, and these too should not have happened.
I say again, I have no sympathy for the terrorists, and I am glad that Israel can be free of such brutal and revolting acts. But I also repeat, that until both sides can live without fear of violence, then I will not feel that the conflict in the region has met a conclusion which I feel is adequate.
As such, my joy at the newfound security of the innocent Israeli people is stained by my knowledge of the continued suffering of the Palestinians.
Posted by: Amadeus
On: Mon June, 21 2004 @ 02:03 GMT
"The Israeli Government does NOT fear the Bullet or the Tank: THEY ONLY FEAR THE VIDEO CAMERA!"
Unfortunately to report....the original posting on this Thread regarding the purported END OF THE 2nd PALESTINIAN INTIFADA is, alas, sadly mistaken.
Just because the "news" (in the US the press is controlled by only 5 corporations---count them!) is deliberatley NOT covering the Israeli-Palestinian conflict every hour on the hour like asparin, it does NOT mean that the 2nd INTIFADA is over.
It merely means that the press is looking elsewhere in the world to fill up their News Space.
The 2nd PALESTINIAN INTIFADA will never be "over" until there is some kind of "JUST REPARATION" for the 750,000 Palestinian civilians who were force-marched and cruelly driven by gunfire to the 1948 "Israeli"border land eft HOMELESS between June 1948 and December 1949.
So don't be fooled by any lull in the press, then immediately drawing the conclusion "the Palestinians lost the war...." because it is NOT true. The Intifada is ALIVE AND WELL and living in OCCUPIED PALESTINE.
One solution of course would be to take the 250,000 illegal "Israeli-settlers" out of those cushy EAST JERUSALEM Jewish settlements with all their private roads "for Jews only No Arabs" (talk about APARTHEID) etc. and give them to the PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS (gradually) as JUST REPARATION. And the same could be done in Gaza and the West Bank which was not part of the 1948 "legally defined UN Borders" of the State of Israel, whom the "gentile nations" have granted world Jewry following the horrors of the German Holocaust in WWII.
If there SEEMS to be a LULL in the violence, it is because the Western Press is deliberately focussing more on the 9/11 hearings and the senseless, co-called "war-on-Terror" being perpetrated now in Iraq---and the suicide bombings are simply not being covered as "news" which is a lull that is something the Likkud party in "Israel" has been waiting for since the Atrocities in Ramallah and Jenin (when they locked "obersvers" out of the area, including the murder of TWO UN EMPLOYEES!!!)
Israeli Government does not like the press covering the Israeli slaughters of Palestinian civilians in places such as in Jenin and Ramallah (2002) or Ariel Sharon's (then Defence Mnister) deliberate "extermination" of more than 3800 Palestinian civilians in the camps of Sabra and Shatilla in September (18th to the 21st) 1982, which the US press has always tried to cover up.
The fact that Sharon lost his job over the massacres in Sabra and Shatilla is overshadowded by the fact that the desperate Likkud reactionary right wing fascists made that war-criminal Prime Minister.
That along speaks VOLUMES for any moral "highground" the Israeli government (but not the people, who are not responsible for their government's racism directly) may ever have had: Mr Sharon belongs (along with Blair and Bush) in the World Court at the Hague being tried for Atrocities and War Crimes as well as Crimes Against Humanity.
And because the aging Mr Arafat has found it necessary to stoop (for several years now) to the level of the Israeli government himself and "fight terrorism with terrorism" , he would have to go with them too for the same crimes.
If the Israeli government thinks the Palestinian population will just roll over and die in their attempts to have their own Palestinian State, they are sadly mistaken:
They need to remember a bit of their own history: 2,000 years ago, even "Israel" itself, while under 130 years of CRUEL AND ECONOMICALLY OPPRESSIVE ROMAN OCCUPATION never ceased to give up its dream of an independent Jewish State---sending Messiah after Messiah into reveolution, revolt, counter revolution and riot---- until Rome destroyed their Temple and finally ground the country to powder, killing over 900,000 Palestinian Jews in the course of not ONE but TWO Failed Revolts (AD 66-72 in the 1st Jewish revolt, and later in AD 135-136 with the socalled "Bar Kokhba" Revolt).
If the 1st Century "Jews" had explosives back then, they would have used suicide bombing against the Romans, no doubt about it. Read Josephus' accounts of the Jewish War (for what it is worth) to get a glimpse into what measures they were willing to take to their political and religious independence, which they somehow was part of their socalled "divine right".
And the Palestinian Intifada today being waged is NO DIFFERENT.
