שרעקליכע סאדיסטישע אויפפירינג פון 48

Mendel Zit

The guilty people are the parents who send small children in a situation like this without making sure that all is OK. It is the responsibility of parents to ensure that their children will be accepted. One has to be quite blind to assume that despite the fight life will just go on as before.

As to the Din Torah about the name, I am not absolutely familiar with all the facts, but do not believe the R'Benzion initiated it. Obviously if there is a claim Beis Din has to hear it, but that does not mean the claim is valid

CJL,
ס'איז אינטרעסאנט אז די וויסט שוין וואס דער רבוש"ע האלט - אין מיין תורה שטייט על פי התורה אשר יוריך און פארדעם זיצט א ב"ד. און לויט דעם חוץ לדרך הטבע'דיגע הצלחה און ס"ד וואס מ' זעט בין איך נישט זיכער צו דער רבוש"ע האלט דאס זעלבע ווי די.

NOT BENTZI IS AT FAULT .AAL AND C.Y.T

MendelZit

Maybe I do not know what the Ribboino Shel Oilam considers right and I withdraw that remark, but I was making the statement based on how the matter is progressing. Only time will tell who is right, but we have to look at it with our eyes.

cjl

Two wrongs don't make one right. Even if it's true that the parents just sent the kids without talking to anybody, which I don't believe, that does not give a school or day camp the right to send them home without contacting anyone.

And as far as the din torah is concerned - you're absolutely right, Reb B"Z did not initiate it, his people just took everything without caring whom it really belongs to. He only wnet to din torah because the judge forced him to. It really doesn't matter what people thought all along would happen, and by the way there were a lot more people that didn't agree than you think there were.

MendelZit

Your first paragraph I challenge and do not believe that parents were told their children were accepted and then sent home without warning

Your second paragraph implies that someone stole buildings and moisdos. These are part of Bobov and in my opinion funded with our money and not personal possessions. It therefore follows that whoever commands the support of the Bobover oilam should continue running and controlling the moisdos and this seems what the Beis Din decided on initial consideration

Whether a Din Toirah should rule about the whole issue is open to debate and we will not convince each other. What is clear however is that for nearly 5 years we had a Rebbe who was a Tzadik, but unfortunately very ill and unable to exert his own authority to control all sides. Bobov suffered from this and is in desperate need of a strong popular leader. R'Benzion has risen to the challenge and from what I hear is doing an excellent job

In difficult times strong people have to emerge and take control, even if some people do not like it

cjl

I don't know for a fact that the parents registered, but I'm pretty sure that the kids were sent home without the parents bing contacted, and in at least one case there was nobody at home and the kids just stayed on the street. A school or day camp has some responsibility even if the kids were not registered

I can understand the opinion of many people that Reb B"Z was the designated next rebbe, and that the mosdos belong to Bobov, not to any person, but the problem is that there are two parties in Bobov, and nobody can say that I am right for sure because that is my opinion - other people have other opinions and how else to settle such a case if not by din torah - that's how it was done in Klausenberg and in many other places

I agree with you that Reb B"Z is doing an excellent job, but so is Reb M"D, just as both Vizhnitzer rebbes are doing a very good job

cjl

One more point - EVERBYODY in 45 st respects the psak of beis din. Everybody feels that these five rabbonim are ehrlich and paskened according to the torah and not their own personal opinions. Even if beis din in the end gives everything to Reb B"Z, everybody in 45 st will be satisfied that if they have nothing it is because that is what the halocho is according to the beis din. Those who still want to stay with Reb M"D will just have to start from scratch. Everybody in 45 st understands that and accepts that

MendelZit

Unfortunately, there is a saying that a Din Toirah suits the party without a case best, because they have nothing to lose and since always, and especially in a case like this, there will be tremendous pressure to accept a p'shure, they are likely to come out with something

No wonder they are the ones pushing for the Din Toirah

THATS EXACTLY WHAT 45TH WANTS ,THEY WANT YASHRES

Look, at least 25%, if not more, of Bobov went with Reb M"D. You also have to admit that many others were held back with "eizene keiten", so why would a pshura be such a terrible thing? And I suggest that if you know someone who knows Choshan Mishpat, ask him if 45th st is without a case. Adaraba

MendelZit

Sorry for delay, but Daf Yomi comes before Hyde Park

If a sizeable minority went with R' MD, then I concede that they might be entitled to some split in assets. The problem is though, that they insist on calling themselves Bobov and unless you have majority support, that is untenable. I believe this is also causing the deep division and animosity resulting in the unwillingness to compromise. How can you compromise with someone who is effectively trying to delegitimise you. Lehavdil, this was like Israel's refusal to negotiate with the Palestinans who refused to accept their right to exist. Most of us would not question R' MD's right to become a Rebbe, but not Bobover Rebbe

This comes back to posts some time ago when I argued that it is not a question of yerusha but who has majority support to take over the Rebbistreve and that the assets belong to the chassidim. On that basis a division based on numbers would be fair. Problem is, few people seem to agree with this approach

Coming back to sending kids home from day camp, I have not heard or spoken to those involved and do not know the true facts and circumstances, but the way I would have handled it would have been to let them stay that day and send them home with a letter that they can't come in future.