Yevusi-
RE:-Your question --what is the status of a ( at the moment hypothetical) creature created by scientists from -chazir- DNA?
I am sure some of the chachmei haforum hachashuvim would be able to site mekorot chashuvot besafrut hahilkhatit concerning this matter. I will share with you that which I, ani hakatan, have come to know which has bearing on the question-
There is a Midrash- -(I believe it is in Midrash Shochar Tov)- which says- V'et hachazir- lamah nikra shmah chazir- mipnei sheatid lechzor leheteirah- It is called - chazir- because it will return to being permissible- mutar- That is to say- after the coming of Mashiach, it will be permitted to eat the meat of the -
chazir-
Of course, this sounds strange. In fact, Rabbeinu Bachye (Parashat Shmini, Yud, Zayin) attacks this undrstanding of the Midrash - declaring it a -davar muzar- and he gives a different pshat in the Midrash. However, the Midrash, as cited above, is accepted by many.
The Or HaChayyim (Parashat Shmini, Yud, Zayin) says- This midrash does not mean that the chazir will remain as it is today and will yet become muttar in the Messianic Age. Rather, it means that Hakadosh Barukh Hu will change the nature of the chazir in the messianic age so that it will be maaleh gerah; it will chew its cud. The pasuk says about the chazir (Vayikra, Yud, Zayin)- vehu gerah lo yigar tame hi lakhem. The Or haChayyim says this means that the chazir is tame- treif- forbidden- only as long as -gerah lo yigar- it does not chew its cud. The time will come, however, when it does chew its cud. HaKadosh Barukh Hu will change its nature leacharit hayamim and then its meat will be muttar.
It is said that someone once showed this Or HaChayyim to the Chafetz Chayyim and he commented- Here we see that simanim are a sibah, not a siman.
This means- The Torah gives simanim for kosher animals. They must have split hooves and chew their cud. One might understand these simanim as being merely a way of identifying the kosher species. It is as if the Torah gave these simanim as a way of saying- the kosher animals are- cows, sheep , goats- without having to list them. The simanim are a kind of shorthand.
The Chafetz Chayyim was saying that we see that the Or HaChayyim did not see the simanim of the Torah in this way. The Or HaChayyim says that in the messianic age, the meat of the chazir will become muttar because its nature will change and it will chew its cud.
That means that the differntiation between those animals that are kosher and those that are treif is not simply based on the differentiation among the species- e.g. cows are kosher, swine is treif etc. If that were the case, the chazir would be treif in the messianic age even if it chewed its cud. Because, after all, the simanim are only a shorthand for referring to the different species of animals and a chazir that chews its cud is still a chazir so it ought to be treif.
We see, then, from the Or HaChayyim that the simanim are not just a shorthand method for referring to the various species under discussion. Rather, the presence of a siman is what makes the animal kosher and its absence is what makes an animal treif. v
So- one might say - if the scientists come up with a chazir- like creature fashioned from chazir DNA- the question might depend on whether the creature had simanim. Does it chew its cud? If yes, it's kosher; if not it's treif- it's all about the siman.
However, even after seeing this Or HaChayyim (Vayikra Yud, Zayin) and hearing what the Chafetz Chayyim had to say about it I am not convinced as to what the halakha would be in the case of your lab-swine.
Because- in the case of the Or HaChayyim- he is talking about the messianic age and he is saying that the min- chazir- the whole species- will change in the Messianic Age. In the Messianic Age, - it will be the case that the chazir- a treif- forbidden species- will metamorphose into a cud-chewing kosher species. Therefore, every single member of this kosher cud-chewing species will be kosher.
In other words: Even if we view simanim as the ultimate criterion- that does not necessarily mean that we look at each individual animal and check whether it has simanim. It might yet be the case that we check to see whether the species is a cud-chewing species.
One might bring forth evidence for this sort of understanding from the fact that the Torah bothers to mention minim, species, at all. Couldn't the Torah just have identified the simanim which render an animal kosher and left it to us to figure out which species fit the bill and which don't? The Torah specified a number of species that possess one siman and not the other- gamal, shafan, arnevet, chazir.
Perhaps the Torah bothered to specify the minim in order to let us know that even though it is true as we see from the Or HaChayyim that ultimately it is about simanim - the test for simanim is species-wide and not based on the individual animal.
If we understand things in this way then the question of the lab-DNA-swine might depend upon whether they are considered of the min, the species- chazir. Even if the lab-DNA- swine have the requisite simanim- even if they chew their cud- if they are considered of the min (species) chazir- they will be treif. They will be treif because they are the members of a non- cud chewing species, the chazir. The fact that they are exceptional cud-chewing chazirim does not change their status.
Now,- I do not know how to determine whether the lab-creatures are to be considered as being of the min chazir. Of course, in the world of science, species identification depends upon whether individuals can interbreed successfully- that is- produce viable offspring. However, beburuti, I do not know whether halakha defines a species in the same way.
(I don't know- Might it be appropriate to compare this question to questions raised by the poskim about the status of artificially created "humans"? The Chacham Tzvi considerd the question of a -Golem- an artificial man created by a tzaddik. The Chazon Ish also commented on this question. In more recent times, poskim have considered the status of test-tube babies and human clones. I am unfortunately not familiar with the literature on this subject. Does the question of artificially manufactured humans have any bearing on the question of our lab-creatures? Might we say that creatues created in a lab are not considered chayyot at all according to the Torah point of view and the issurim do not apply? I don't know.)
Questions arise- What if over time the cud-chewing lab-creatures and their descendants become a majority of the chazir- type in the world. Would that change the status of the chazir species to that of a kosher species? Be'emet, eineni yodea.
To sum up- Bekitzur-If the lab-creatures lack simanim- like regular chazirim- at least according to the Or HaChayim, -there seems to be a good argument for them to be treif.
Even, if they have simanim; they chew the cud- they might still be treif because they are members of a majority non-cud chewing species.
All this reasoning may not be applicable because creatures fashioned in a lab - may automatically be - a different species- or - perhaps- not considered chayyot at all. I don't know how halakha views DNA- whether it has any significance etc. Concerning these last considerations, I am truly ignorant. If anyone has any info. on these matters, I would very much appreciate hearing from them.
נשלח ב-23/8/2005 11:27
Yevusi-
RE: Your question- things coming from a behemah temeah-
VaYikra Yud- Pasuk Chet- Mibsaram Lo Tochelu - Rashi- al bsaram beazharah velo al atzamot vegidin vekarnayim vetlafim-
So- Rashi clearly says - only the meat is assur- not bones, horns, hooves etc.-
However, beburuti, I don't know,- there may be an issur derabanan on these things as well.
I don't remember the details- but there was a major rabbinic controversy in the US- about seventy five years ago concerning the manufacture of kosher gelatin. I think the argument of those rabbis who ruled the gelatin kosher despite its having been made from swine-derived products had to do with the fact that the gelatin was made from bones only, no meat.
(I might be mistaken about this and the controversy may have had more to do with the fact that the animal products used underwent significant chemical changes in the manufacturing process.)
נשלח ב-23/8/2005 11:34
Nishtikh-
Yasher Koach for the Maharal!
The Maharal is somewhat difficult to understand- Even if the chisaron of the dvorim assurim is mitzad inyonim elokiyyim not inyonim tiviyyim- since the inyon is that the dovor ossur is mazzik beruchnius- what is the inyon of saying - efshi-?
הבד"ץ לא למד את חז"ל, לאכול חזיר אסור! ז"א שגם השם אסור?! אזי איך מתנהגים כמו חזירים אם השם אסור?
ויקרא רבה (וילנא) פרשת אחרי מות פרשה כב
ר' אבא ור' יונתן בשם ר' לוי אמר יותר ממה שאסרתי לך- התרתי לך! דם הנדה אסרתי לך- התרתי לך דם בתולים. אסרתי לך אשת איש, התרתי לך את השבויה, אשת אח -התרתי לך יבמה, אשה ואת אחותה בחייהם- התרתי לך לאחר מיתה, לבישת כלאים- התרתי לך סדין בציצית, בשר חזיר- התרתי לך דג ששמו שיבוטא, את החלב -התרתי לך את השומן ,את הדם ,התרתי לך טחול, בשר בחלב -התרתי לך את הכחל, ר' מנחמא ור' ביבי ור' אחא ור' יוחנן בשם ר' יונתן אמרו תחת מה שאסרתי לך התרתי לך תחת איסור דגים לויתן דג טהור תחת איסור עופות זיז עוף טהור הוא הה"ד (שם /ת
מותרים תחליפים- האם לשתות תחליפי חלב לאחר ארוחה בשרית גם אסור,- איך שכחתי כמובן שמחזיקים את הקופסה על השולחן.
שכני הטוב אכילת הקרעפלעך- הוא לא סתם מנהג, יש בה פתרון לבעיה הלכתית.
כידוע אסור ליהודי לאכול בשר בימות החול- רק בשבת וביו"ט, קרעפלעך=כיסנים- אוכלים בימים -ערב יוה"כ -הושענה רבא- ובפורים. ימים שהם ספק יו"ט ספק חול. אז אם זה יו"ט מותר לאכול בשר, ואם זה חול אסור. מה עושים ?לוקחים את הבשר ומכסים אותו,
אפילו בתורה יש רמז על כך- בעיה"כ בהושענא ובפורים -מכים, ורומזת לנו התורה- הכה תכה
