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| נשלח ב-1/11/2005 17:36 |
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Hasid,
Did Genghis Kah, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Napolian, Alexander the Great, Nero, do all they did because of Religion? Me don't think so.
Is Democracy wrong if democratic countries wage illegitimate wars?
We all agree that human beings are predominantly egoistic and self-centerd, they will use anything at their diposal to further their egoistic agenda. They are not even averse of using or misusing ideals of goodness and brotherhood for their own egoistic end.
Communism is a beautiful idea yet a misused one if there ever was one.
Same goes with religion.
But why should it bother us? If for arguements sake we will verify historically that Buddha had some serious egoism problems and that he used his teaching sometimes to further his own personal ends, will it make sense to disregard the truths and beauty in his teachings? Should we stop meditating and doing the rituals that help us reach Nirvana?
Let's focus on the question if the rituals and basic observance of Judaism can help one achieve truth and peace, if it can help one become a better person.
Was the writer of the Torah being primitively nationalistic (horribly so) when commanding the Amalek Mitzvah? Or was it really incorporated in the Torah as an old tradition to bolster the spirits of the people possibly suffering then from the Amalekim?
Maybe a concession to the masses, to the primitive masses, but formulated in a way that will not be really hurtful only a conceptual rememberance. something akin to Ben Sorrer Umoreh that accroding to some is impossible to ever take place.
Whatever the case, even if the writer was not immune to the foibles of his times we shouldnt throw out the baby with the bathwater more so when part of the baby is ourselves.
So again I say Go ahead don't believe in God, The kabbalists tell us that there is no such thing in the first place. Just try to be an ethical person and utilize the amazing tools in your possesion, Tefilla Berachot, Shabbos, etc. etc.
What is Havaih? Existence,
There is an eshkol here that asks what do we mean by God, lets take it from there.
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| נשלח ב-1/11/2005 17:38 |
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Ani
In my humble opinion I would rather translate יהוה as its translate by the sages היה הוה והיהי that means he was always and he is and would always be not being, again although existence is a beautiful concept it does not fit in to the torah, and maybe because existence is such a beautiful concept it does not fit in to such a primitive text.
Dear Shachliel
I would rather use a different system for self control then the bible that has so much hatred in it
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| נשלח ב-1/11/2005 17:59 |
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Dear Ani
Again what is so special that you see in the torah more then what's commonly excepted ethics like you shall respect your elders or you shall not steal etc. that you are willing to overlook all flawed and unethical commandments in the torah and try to kvetch such a beautiful concept likeהתאמה into it?
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| נשלח ב-1/11/2005 18:22 |
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עני בפתח.
רק הערה אחת קטנה (ולכן אני מרשה לעצמי לכתוב בעברית)
היטלר באופן מוצהר וברור פעל בשם אלוהים. אלוהים שבחר בגזע ההארי כעם נבחר שאמור לנקות את הרוע בעולם. למזלינו הרע הרוע היה אנחנו והצוענים והכושים.
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| נשלח ב-2/11/2005 06:00 |
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Never Again,
Great point, Hitler did exactly what I claim happened all along he USED religion for his own personal egoitstic or nationalistic ends. It's not religion who's the culprit, it's our own shortcomings, we use all means at our disposal to further our goals.
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| נשלח ב-2/11/2005 14:03 |
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Dear Chasid_Emes,
I totally agree with your idea that the Torah should be updated even to the point where "kidushin" will be done by both partners etc...
However, it has to be understood, that the update has to come through evolution and not revolution which is risky. Therefore, in the meantime a self educating person who for whatever reason is in the Judaic fold, has got more to loose from abandoning Judaism and becoming estranged both from where he came and from where he went to, than from becoming one who is constrained by his own wisdom ("Anus haTevuna" in Maimoni's terms) who continues to improve in his self-education.
Dear Tzuriel,
Not only the Torah needs to be updated as I wrote to Chasid, it HAS in fact been updated up to a remarkable level albeit not to a satisfactory degree, despite the writing of the oral Talmud and the sanctification of tradition.
Let's take your argument about hatred in the Bible; Where in Judaism do we find that this hatred is practically taken seriously today (as part of the Jewish education and not in a case where someone is merely using religion for his craziness)? Did you hear of any sane jew killing another one because of biblical hatred that was the general mentality three thousands years ago? Which system would you rather prefer, one that doesn't require to be on the moral alert 24/7 or one that kills all over? Do you know of any system that enhances the plight of needy people the way it is done in Judaism? Even if you would find such a system, do you think that you will be able to become strongly enough a part of that system so that it will improve your personality to a greater extent, than if you stay in your old fold?
As I wrote earlier, I understand that once someone has officially rejected Judaism, he has a problem to appreciate the beauty beneath the primitive external form of it that he has missed.
People like you who are serious, could be the pioneers of Judaic evolution which is waiting since "Moshe miSinai".
תוקן על ידי - שכליאל - 02/11/2005 14:10:28
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| נשלח ב-2/11/2005 19:21 |
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Again I hear the same theory that Judaism is just an idea which will perhaps make the world a better place to leave. An idea put forth by people without any real connotation with a God.
If this is the case then it is up to me to decide if I want to accept the 'light' in following those wise men's teachings or I would like to proclaim myself as a new prophet with a message. Perhaps I should just live my life the way I see it fit, not caring about others – as long as I won't get arrested that is.
Ani dear,
If this was the original concept then it sure failed. Most Jews are NOT religious. Most religious Jews are not any better morally or ethically then their not-frum counterparts. In fact, since what was considered moralistic 3000 years ago is nowadays widely accepted as unethical Judaism failed miserably in the long run.
If that's the case why bother donning tefilin?
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| נשלח ב-2/11/2005 22:02 |
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Hasid
I don't know whether you are a Hasid, but an Emmes you sure are.
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| נשלח ב-3/11/2005 08:44 |
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Hasid, you write,
If this is the case then it is up to me to decide if I want to accept the 'light' in following those wise men's teachings or I would like to proclaim myself as a new prophet with a message. Perhaps I should just live my life the way I see it fit, not caring about others – as long as I won't get arrested that is.
What you're saying here is ''why be ethical''. Your point of reference in action is seemingly 'what's in it for me'. Your position is that there is no reason to do anything except if you have some gain out of it. So once you won't get arrested you want to lead your life in a way that will benefit you etc.
I respectfully disagree.
Please refer to the Eshkol on 'Why be ethical'. Let's take it from there.
You write further:
If this was the original concept then it sure failed. Most Jews are NOT religious.
Are you judging the truth and beauty of something by its level of success? Would Mother Teresa be less pure if she would've remained completely unknown while selflessly devoting her life to help others?
If the writer of the Torah says some beautiful and inspired truths, does it matter if it did make waves for all of humanity (wink wink) or it didn't?
Most religious Jews are not any better morally or ethically then their not-frum counterparts.
I'm curious how you got your statistics on that.
If you talk to me about the intellectual dishonesty in frum communities well and fine, but ethics, Hmm.
Take a typical charedi Moshav in Israel and tell me what percentage are into 'working on themselves' on their 'Midos' etc. How many of them try no talk 'Loshon Hora', how many are into doing 'Chesed' etc. Do you really think that a secular Moshav comes anywhere close?
Talk about Hakofas in Rodney, Do you too go for Yoily Gold's 'dead bodies' BS? Or you realize that the much hyped brawl was a walk in the park compared to any minor fracas on Motzie Shabbos at Flushing corner Franklin?
It only stands to reason after all that the constant harping from all the 'Mashpiem' about how important it is to be like the 'Gedoilim' and their saintly middos etc. has the desired effect.
Don't get me wrong I find a lot of the 'Gedoilim' BS to be just that. But please don't say that boro park with its myriad help organizations is just your average New York neighborhood.
''In fact, since what was considered moralistic 3000 years ago is nowadays widely accepted as unethical Judaism failed miserably in the long run.''
I would be a little more forgiving for a society 3000 years ago that would require a lender to return every evening his collateral he collected from the poor borrower. Or one that makes a whole to do about an anonymous dead body found in the wayside, a society that practiced animal humaneness 3000 years ago and prohibited shutting the mouth of an animal while having thresh the wheat. Or one that repeated thrice in horror the utter disgust of boiling a kid goat with milk, milk that is supposed to nourish and nurture this innocent kid goat yet here you are boiling it with this selfsame milk in order to fill your belly. (making the point in all its brutality by saying 'don't boil a kid in its ''mothers'' milk')
Yes there is Ameliek in there, but is that all you see there? Why be fixated with Amaliek? Even truly ethical people aren't immune to the misconceptions of their time. I'll be the first to grant you a draft dismissal in our all out war against Ameliek but don't hold your breath it ain't happenin any time soon.
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| נשלח ב-3/11/2005 09:07 |
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Look here, we are living in a society that has many customs and regulations (understatement of the year) many of which can be beautiful and inspiring if done with some deep thinking, so why fight it?
Yes maybe even not eating Milchig and Fleishig can be a deep beautiful lesson in humane behavior, in how we want to keep a bit of humaneness even while gorging ourselves on the flesh of what we just killed.
Why should we care sooo much if Haviah was meant by Moshe to be Existence (Les Asar Ponie Minie) or that it's a much later interpretation of the Kabbalists? Let's just make the best use out of all the rituals and laws and Gomarnu.
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| נשלח ב-4/11/2005 13:52 |
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There is some old fashioned tune to this discussion. The anti Torah opinions here make it seem like someone is out to impose the Torah on someone else. It is of course not the case. I am sure Oonibapesach wouldn't care if any of the writers here is boiel es imoi sheloi kedarko beemtza tfilas neile al bimas beis haknesses [Rodney or any] while noshing some bacon [provided it is done berootzoin kol hatzdoodim]. The point is merely to discuss and try to show that the Torah has an exclusive educational beauty and that the fact that we received it coated with BS does not mean that whoever wants and can remove the coating [toichoi oochal klipoosoi zoorak], should be deligitimized.
In the hebrew Atzor we had a cluster comparing the Hammurabi code to the Torah. I didn't get involved over there but I plan beezer Hoive to do it here and demonstrate the originally special way of how the Torah gradually took man from where he was to where he ought to be. Unfortunately this development has been stopped by the sanctification of the writing of the oral Torah instead of leaving it oral so that our discussion here would be no less part of it. This doesn't mean that whoever could continue in the original way for his personal evolution and for the sake of educating his offsprings, should refrain from it.
Bekitzer, what we are trying to say is that we can remain open, free and happy with the Torah if we know how to take it seriously [not literally] and if we understand the ways to interact with the fundamentalists around us. For that we don't have to throw away neither our Rabbayni Tam's gatkes and nor forsake the beauties of shabbes. [Of course we shouldn't forget to take an interesting book or some atzor pages to shil to add to our oineg shabbes.]
I am sorry about the shocking illustrative example I gave above, but after reconsidering many times, I think that it is the best way to carry forth my point.
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| נשלח ב-4/11/2005 17:24 |
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Veto, Oh Dearest Veto,
Thank you so much for the initiative, and thanks for your input.
I absolutely concur with your assesment on what my point is all about.
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| נשלח ב-4/11/2005 19:58 |
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Dear Veto1
provided it is done berootzoin kol hatzdoodim
hopefully you included the pigs will too....
I'm afraid you missed the point. The main argument is not whether one can, if he of course uses modern tools, draw out from the Torah wonderful ideas. And those ideas, if coated in the right western and modern coat, can help him to even polish his insights and improve is behaviour. And it seems that no one, from your opposition, will disagree with you.
However, as I started its irrelevant to the issue raised here by Hasid and discussed by any and others. Why is it irrelevant? Because the only question that should be, at least in my modest opinion, asked is; is it the right interpretation to Judaism?
We all agree , actually not all… but at least in this forum, that one can be a moral and an ethical human being even without Torah, in my opinion even the Torah it self agrees. And as I said above
The torah can and should be used as a good source
To improve our morality, not more, BTW, then many other religions as Buddhism, Christianity etc
So, what defines Torah from the other religions and philosophies? The only answer, to me, is: Gods will, and therefore we should ask ourselves what he meant. And subsequently whether your interpretation, regardless its depth and substance,
is genuine.
תוקן על ידי - cosmo_jew - 04/11/2005 19:59:17
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| נשלח ב-4/11/2005 21:44 |
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Rabienu Veto,
Yes, your example is definitely a bit, ahem, below the belt. There are a lot of issues with what you said. I think you realize the importance of a social structure (Misgeret), where even the elite still need a system to abide by so that they do the right thing even when they are not in full philosophical mode (יראת העונש כשהם בקטנות דמוחין) kal Ve'chomer for the general populace who are hardly ever philosophically inclined.
So in the end maybe sexual liaisons at the bimah Yom Kippur should be limited to reading about it by Mincha.
I do agree that maybe I sounded a bit preachy which is very very far from my intent. It's just that I don't understand the strong opposition on making use of the social system we have, and thereby grow in our ethical behaviour.
Dearest Cosmo,
Why is the question about the ''true'' interpretation of the Torah sooo important? And why is it important to Hasid's question? He asks if he should keep the Mitzvoth and I answer that a very large percentage of the mitzvoth can help one be guided to ethical behaviour, hence it makes sense to be Mekaim the Mitzvoth.
As I tried to show that even a seemingly unimportant Mitzvah like separation of Diary and Meat can actually reinforce humaneness and ethics.
So with Teffila with Shabbos, Berachos, et al.
The Torah is not necessarily the best system around, others systems are possibly better, you say. Well maybe so, but this point is only relevant when you really have the option to change over to the other system.
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