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Can "t'lost tribe" be won by rationality

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נשלח ב-22/11/2005 22:56 לינק ישיר 
Can "t'lost tribe" be won by rationality

I came upon a news forum in yiddish and found a report titled "the lost tribe" over a book that features New Yorker hassidim who rejected the way they were educated. The forum being frum although internetian, belittles them as "bad apples", but as some know better, they usually are good souls that didn't have enough social success to keep them within the fold.

I know that some of those have rethought their decisions upon learning that Judaism is not necessarily so fundamentalist. I am not talking about "Atzor Geniuses", but about very average nice people who realized that although religion comes as a package deal, there is more than one package and that one can act quite socially kosher while thinking treyf (so to say).

This rational way has a double advantage. 1. One does not have to loose one's family and social connections even while learning from other societies. 2. One doesn't loose the positive moral effects of Judaism.

In the following notices, I will copy from the said forum.


תוקן על ידי - עצור_כאן - 24/11/2005 20:06:51



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נשלח ב-22/11/2005 23:04 לינק ישיר 

מצורף קובץ

The article's cover



תוקן על ידי - עצור_כאן - 24/11/2005 20:07:16



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נשלח ב-22/11/2005 23:05 לינק ישיר 


http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/pfriendly_new.php


THE LOST TRIBE
By HEIDI SINGER

IN a dark little bar on the outskirts of her neighborhood, "Dini" trades her thick flesh-colored stockings and navy suit for high heels and short skirt. Back home in Hasidic Williamsburg, she's the model of piousness - except for the dark towels covering her windows when she's watching her illicit TV, sneaked into her apartment in a garbage bag.

So goes the secret double life of a Hasidic rebel in the ultra-Orthodox Satmar sect, whose members live in a time warp and shun contact with the outside world.

A controversial new book, "Unchosen: The Hidden Lives of Hasidic Rebels," takes a bold look at the handful of Hasids who just don't fit into their close-knit but strictly religious communities. Author Hella Winston spent many months exploring this largely unknown Orthodox underworld for her doctoral thesis at City University of New York, and found stories of Hasids hoping to either cope or escape.

Some of the subjects, like Malkie Schwartz, boldly rip away their fur hats, wigs and prayer shawls and walk away from family, friends and the only community they've ever known, building new lives on the other side of the Brooklyn Bridge.

Others, like "Yossi," shave their beards and stop believing in a "Torah life," but struggle to find their way in the outside world, remaining with a foot uncomfortably in each.

And then there are married fathers like Yitzach, who doesn't dare rebel openly - but secretly dreams of getting a tattoo. Others take their fantasies a step farther, watching movies and reading non-religious books, changing into jeans and gelling back their sidelocks on the subway to Manhattan - and blogging about their lives on the Internet.

Although she's been taking heat from the ultra-Orthodox at book readings and Jewish radio shows, Winston insisted she's not attacking Hasidism.

"By no means do I have an agenda to condemn these communities or the religion," says Winston, who's Jewish. "I'm trying to show a side of things that really hasn't been out there - to show there are some serious problems and people are suffering."

The book's main character, Yossi (like most of her subjects, Winston changed his name to protect his identity) was a respected young scholar from the ultra-secretive Bobov sect, trapped in a loveless arranged marriage and a faith that no longer made sense to him.

After getting divorced and shaving his beard, Yossi's father kicked him out of the house and cut him loose. These days, Yossi mostly wanders around the city, looking for free things to do, and dreaming of going to college and becoming a filmmaker. At night, he hangs out in an East Village bar, changing into his religious garb for the subway ride back to Boro Park, where he lives with his grandmother.

"Some people make a religion of leaving - they want nothing more to do with the neighborhood," says the mild-mannered youth, over cheese blintzes in a Boro Park eatery. "But I come to Boro Park, I still schmooze."

Now that he has left, Yossi knows the tell-tale signs of other Hasids in rebellion. Walking down a residential street off bustling 13th Avenue, the heart of Boro Park, he points out suspected double-livers.

"That guy, he had a nice trim beard and short sidelocks," Yossi says, pointing to a young man hurrying down the street. "If someone trims, you know he's up to something."

Yossi still has a Yiddish accent, but in secular clothes, he walks and stands differently. When he's in a bookstore, coffee shop or even a nightclub, he sometimes spots other Hasidic rebels just by their posture. He's been shocked to discover the number of fellow travelers.

"I see it's not such a small community as they tell you - and there's always coming new people," he says. "I thought I might have a hard time adjusting but I found people from all communities are the same. They have the same craziness."

The book brings out some fascinating things about Hasids' reaction to the larger world.

Hasidic men are notorious night owls, accustomed to big gatherings with alcohol and dancing. So it's only natural they gravitate to nightclubs to recreate some semblance of the social life left behind.

And secret male TV watchers love Jennifer Aniston on "Friends," because her hair looks a little like the wigs Hassidic women don to cover their shaved heads. But "Seinfeld," the quintessential TV show about New York Jews isn't so popular, according to Yossi.

But Winston was amazed not by the differences but the similarities as she researched "Unchosen."

"The most striking to me was just how much like everybody else they are," Winston says. "They like the same kinds of things the rest of us do - like the Yankees or "Friends."

Hasid sects & the city

Hasids are ultra-Orthodox Jews whose members are dedicated to a "Torah" life. They worship with fervent prayer, song and dance and mystical devotion. Men wear dark suits and hats, with long beards and sidelocks. Women dress modestly and wear wigs or scarves.

About 200,000 Hasids live in the New York City area, mostly in Williamsburg, Crown Heights, Boro Park and Rockland and Orange counties. Sects are named after the Eastern European regions where they originated. Three of the most common in New York City:

Satmar - The largest sect, originated in Hungary and is among the most conservative. Its members are anti-Israel.

Bobov - From Poland, this group is less political.

Lubavitch - A Russian sect, it's concentrated in Crown Heights and is considered the most open to outsiders. Members try to recruit other Jews.


http://hydepark.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?topic_id=1682955

תוקן על ידי - שכליאל - 22/11/2005 23:05:05



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נשלח ב-22/11/2005 23:40 לינק ישיר 


http://hydepark.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?topic_id=1643620&whichpage=1




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נשלח ב-23/11/2005 02:15 לינק ישיר 

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Sachliel,
The book is called ''Unchosen-the hidden life of Hassidic rebels''. The cover is much less provocative then the picture that the Post chose to use.

It's hard to get 'heimisher' critique the traditional way, but a lot of the bloggers mentioned this book, some in favor and some not. Malkie Schwartz, herself depicted in the book even appeared as a guest commenter on this blog:
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/11/lady-malkie-schwartz.html

The book itself caused a heimisher veibel to open her own blog called 'rechosen'
http://rechosen.blogspot.com/. You can find a link to the authors show on a NY radio show, which apparently got a few Chassidim to call in.




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נשלח ב-23/11/2005 02:31 לינק ישיר 

Your points are true but will never happen, at least not in a long time. Let me explain why.

I imagine you to be a disenchanted Chusid, perhaps you're known for your provocative ideas and thoughts. But, I highly doubt that your kids will get higher education, job, and family, in this prescribed order. In fact, if your kids go to Yeshiva, there's no way that they can know your true feelings about Judaism or heaven knows how mixed up they could become. How will your own rational transmit itself to your offspring before they are married and it is too late?

Most people who leave are either not married or have some other issues that caused them to divorce and thus free of a personal constraint. Rarely does one see a family leave Judaism. You might want to retort that you are not talking about leaving, but staying in Williamsburg and changing the system slowly but surely. However, it will never happen because the social pressure is much too strong. What ends up happening is that only a few leave and they are the ones who would be troublemakers elsewhere too. at least this is the case with the majority of the rebels.

And it is those guys who don't care much about the moral aspects of Judaism anyway. The positive aspects of it are connoted with food or some superficial stimulant that has nothing to do with the original idea that Judaism bases itself upon.

Therefore, the conclusion must be that things will not shake up for a really long time. Somehow this very system that we all so decry ensured stability where their grandparents failed.



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נשלח ב-23/11/2005 11:34 לינק ישיר 

Dear Hasid,

I am indeed talking about staying and knowing how to be a "adam beoholek'ha v'yehudi betzetek'ha".

Although I hope that you are wrong about the pace of the evolution (not revolution) I must admit that you are probably right unless some unexpected occurence happens (who knows).

However, I do think that it is enough for a few such "choshvim" to be closely befriended in order to be socially sound. As I understand, there are already such kind of nucleuses and I think that you know whom to ask.

Concerning kids' education, with some serious thought given to the matter, it seems that it could be achieved. Here is something that one of the serious atzorninkim has written in private, seemingly from his own educational experience, which I know personally to have worked for several families.


וזה לשונו:

עיקר החינוך אינו מילולי, אלא תחושתי, ולזה נעזר במילים מתאימות, אך מילים שאינם מתנגשות עם ההקשר החברתי, אלא נותנות חשיבות -פרופורציה- שונה.

ילד שישמע -

העיקר לעשות את מה שנכון.

שבת מזכיר לנו שאנחנו לא יכולים לעשות הכל, ואנחנו לא מרכז העולם.

אנחנו צריכים לשמור על כל דבר בבריאה, הכל זה חשוב, הכל זה חלק מבריאת ה'.

אנחנו מזכירים לעצמנו שאנחנו העם הנבחר שעושה את מה שאמת בכל דבר, וד' שחותמו אמת מורה את האמת....

יש כאן בריאה גדולה, הכל זה השם, אנחנו גם חלק מהשם, וכדי לדעת מה השם רוצה, אנחנו צריכים לראות מה הוא רצה בבריאה, ולשמור על רצונו, על העצים, על בני האדם... השם נתן לנו שכל כדי שנבין מה הוא רוצה, ובגלל שהשכל שלנו לא תמיד יודע לבד מספיק כמו שאברהם אבינו ידע, השם נתן לנו תורה...

ובתמיכת ההמחשה העצמית, שתשומת הלב העיקרית לחיות נכון, ולא יושם דגש כבד מדאי על ריצוי הא-ל, או על כל דבר שהילד תופס אותו מיסטית, יכוונו אותו לחיי אמת.

וכל זה ללא אמירה מפורשת המנגדת לתפיסה החברתית.

_______________

ההנחה שלי, שעם כל מה שהחברה משרישה, האופן בו הדברים מתקבלים בבית, והיחס שניתן לדברים לעומת ערכים נכונים יותר [המודגשים פחות בחברה ויודגשו יותר בבית] יתנו לדברים הקשר של "חשיבות" נכון יותר, ובקלות הילד יוכל לקבל את העמדות הנכונות מייד בגיל צעיר, ובהמשך לבטל השפעות קלות מאי הפרופורציה באמונה החברתית.

תוקן על ידי - שכליאל - 23/11/2005 11:36:05



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נשלח ב-23/11/2005 11:35 לינק ישיר 

What did you mean by: "ensured stability where their grandparents failed."?



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נשלח ב-24/11/2005 04:06 לינק ישיר 

Wow, this is an avalanche, check out this NY Times article about a modern day Shtreimel.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/23/nyregion/23computer.html



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נשלח ב-24/11/2005 17:28 לינק ישיר 

Before the war people drove away in throngs. The survivors, both spiritually and physically, created a ghetto in which to hide any outside influence. It worked. Look around you.


Ani



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נשלח ב-24/11/2005 20:05 לינק ישיר 

Dear Hasid,

Thanks!

In Malkie Schwartz's article she mentions "footsteps" as a help organization. I have heard the name mentioned before and I am trying to find out more about it. Do you have a link or some other helpful information about it?



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נשלח ב-25/11/2005 07:18 לינק ישיר 

Some have asked me if I have taken writing lessons from this organization…

http://www.footstepsorg.org/


תוקן על ידי - hasid_emes - 25/11/2005 7:17:48



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נשלח ב-25/11/2005 08:34 לינק ישיר 

Thanks again!

I read a little the rechosen blog which you linked above. She writes beautifully, clevely and elegantly and besides she does quite a good job in balancing emotions by showing that not everything is black and white or good apple versus rotten apple.

She seems to be managing well the adage of "Yehudi betzetek'ha veAdam beoholek'ha". However, I failed to notice if she deals with the everyday detailed conflicts of her subjects. Davening or not? Keeping kosher and how far? etc... For since in the way of life she projects there has to be a healthy combination between one's religious adherence and personal convictions and that is what makes tose people's top blow off. I guess we should invite sheitel to share with us her attitude in the daily conflicts.



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נשלח ב-25/11/2005 21:49 לינק ישיר 

Sachliel dear,

I have noticed you using earlier the phrase ''יהודי בצאתך ואדם באוהליך'', is this a mistake or is it a pun on Mendelson's *שר"י mantra of ''יהודי באוהליך
ואדם בצאתך''?

* שר"י of course, being גירסא דינקותא…




תוקן על ידי - hasid_emes - 25/11/2005 21:52:58



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נשלח ב-27/11/2005 20:08 לינק ישיר 

Dear Hasid,

It is indeed a pun used long ago in the hebrew atzor and even having a cluster named by it*. The idea is that religion ought to be an educational tool. A tool given as a standard for a whole nation as such, can never be tailored exactly for each individual. However, in order not to loose the system, the individual tailoring has to remain a most private matter. Now after seeing Ani's arguments about critical thinking in the neighboring cluster, it becomes more understandable.


*
היה יהודי בצאתך ואדם באהלך (שאלת מנלן לווטו)
http://hydepark.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?topic_id=628891



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נשלח ב-9/12/2005 16:58 לינק ישיר 

Dear Hasid,

Here is a typical illustration of the "אדם בביתך ויהודי בצאתך" saying.

Linksetzer has put the following link in the hebrew Atzor: http://dhengah.org/


There it says in Yiddish that you should immediately listen to the Rabbis and close the "tame, treyf and stinky" internet. Then it says that if you don't care about it; and in english it says if you don't understand Yiddish; then "click here".

I had a discussion on the subject with one of our friends, which I copy herewith.


Sachliel: To many this site is a plain joke or it illustrates Haredi hypocrisy. But to me it is a concretization of the developement of Halacha.

Friend: Developement?

Sachliel: Yes indeed. On one hand one zealotously screams at the internet in order to be "yotze" the "Yehudi betzetecha", but on the other hand one clicks on and remain "Adam bebeitecha".

Friend: This is not a developement of halacha, but "realpolitic".

Sachliel: Realpolitic is what halacha is all about. This means to be a "Yehudi betzetecha"! This is a means of educational self-discipline derived from one's social belonging!

Friend: To say that something is forbidden and to transgress it, is a plain desecration of halacha. It is like taking a kashrut stamp and stamping it on bacon.

Sachliel: No. We talk here about something which is not totally forbidden, but it does have a negative and dangerous aspect. In order to take care of that, one has to remember that the internet is not fully "tchelet" but that it also has a lot of blue. By stopping at the sharp notice before clicking, one does not go deliberately further, but one first pay attention to the internet danger.

Friend: It is like cleaning the table before starting to work.

Sachliel: Indeed. In the consciousness of the necessity to clean first, lies the educational point.


תוקן על ידי - שכליאל - 09/12/2005 17:06:32



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