יהי רצון שתשבעו רוב נחת מבנכם ושלעולם יהיה ירא שמים בסתר ובגלוי ומודה על האמת ודובר אמת בלבבו!
נשלח ב-27/11/2003 22:33
Hello Ipcha,
Long time no see!
Glad to see you back.
I just wanted to make a small observation about the shifting age of puberty. According to modern studies, the ancient age of puberty was ''later'' than it is today. It is the industrialization of the world that, according to these studies, gradually moved the unset of puberty to an earlier age. So based on these studies, puberty should have started even later in the age of David and Shlomo.
נשלח ב-28/11/2003 00:06
אריה, איפכא וכולם
לזכותו של איפכא שלנו יש לומר שאשכול ברכות הופך לאשכול תורני.
לאור הנושא שהעליתם, אי אפשר שלא להזכיר מחקר חשוב של גילת. פרופסור גילת כתב מאמר ארוך שבו ניסה לשרטט קוים להתפתחות הקביעה כי גיל בגרות לבן הוא 13 ולילדה 12. גם הוא טען כי הקביעה היתה משתנה מילד לילד לפי קצב ההתבגרות שלו, ואך בימי התנאים נקבע הגיל.
כמה הערות מעניינות:
א. יש מחלוקת תנאים בדבר. אי שם בנידה טוען אחד התנאים ששמו נשכח ממני שהסדר צריך להיות הפוך. בן מתברמץ בגיל 12, ובת בגיל 13.
ב. עד היום יש מחלוקת אם ניתן לסמוך על הגיל לבדו, או שצריך גם הבאת סימנים, ואם הגיל מספיק כדי להניח שהסימנים כבר באו (חזקה דרבא).
ג. כאשר אדם אינו מביא סימנים בזמן, ממתינים לו, עד גיל 20, ואז הוא מקבל שם סריס ובוגר יחד. גם זה עשוי להיות שריד לסברה הראשונית שגילת טוען לה.
שומר פיו ולשונו
שומר מצרות נפשו
נשלח ב-28/11/2003 02:14
Dear Maimoni,
Thanks for the compliment. about the different timing for boys and girls, well it seems like the way we "paskened" i.e. that girls mature earlier than boys is agreed upon in the scientific community. it is actually quite interesting that the timing generally accepted today is girls- go through the process of puberty between the age of 8 to 13 and boys between the age of 10 to 15. obviously according to this number we can comfrotably say that a large majorty of girls have matured by age 12 and boys by age 13 which coincides with the timing of Chazal. "Chazaka D'Raba" [most children have Simonim at that time]
(also the fact that pregnancy is a "siman gadlut" is well born out scientifically,)
Dear Aryeh,
it's just interesting that changes in puberty timing does happen. your point that it should have been reverse makes sense but it is quite hard to make a judgment based on today, after all very many variables come in to play. maybe the diet in those days was healthier simply because of their agrarian culture (junk food was hard to come by then) there are certain primitive cultures in the near past or even some that exist today that had an extremly healthy diet. Then what about the evolutionary aspect, 'in order to survive in those times people just had to have stronger bodies and a more robust system. (this is really a curiosity for me, is it true that a few thousand years ago people were stronger due to their closeness to their prehistoric ancestry which was presumably much stronger than current man)
So as i said there are a lot of variables and we cant extrapolate to such minute details like the reasoning and direction of puberty changes.
talking about the nutrition and about the robustness of prehistoric man reminds me of something i think is worhwhile to share with you,
I once read a book from a very eminent scientist an interesting observation on the story in Bereishis of the Etz Hadaas.
a human embroyo directs most of its nutrient intake to the brain and thats the reason the head of a human baby is a third of its total volume, thats also the reason a human newborn is so helpless as the rest of his body has not developed because the greedy brain took all ntrients to itself.
now in order to get all these nutrients in its crucial development stage it is only possible in the womb where it gets a steady supply of nutrients from its mother,
So the whole thing is one long chain reaction. Because humans have such a large brain (a whole additional section more than monkeys) which is what makes us have DAAS, we have to go through a process of pregnancy
[one of the consequences of eating the "etz hadaas"]
also it is well known that the whole agony of childbirth is due to the large head of the baby (monkeys don't have that problem as their head is much smaller) which again is a consequence of us having this large brain [ the "etz hadaas" problem again]
I didnt work out all the details but its quite an interesting observation, food for thought (pun intended)
נשלח ב-28/11/2003 05:32
Ipcha,
As the saying goes, ''when it rains it pours!''
Beautiful modern insight on the Eitz Hadaas.
As for puberty onset, I will not get too much further into it, since, as you say, we lack a positive knowledge of the period in question. I just want to make you aware that from a medical perspective, it is the healthier lifestyle that leads to LATER puberty onset, not the other way around. In a study on the declining age of puberty onset I read that ''records from family bibles at the time of the American Revolution indicate that girls' average age of menarche was 17. A hundred years later it was 15. Today, the average age is 12.''
נשלח ב-28/11/2003 06:56
אי באסמכתא מהמדע אנו עוסקים, הרי פיאג'ע הפדגוג הוכיח במחקריו שישנם שני שלבי התבגרות, בגיל י"ג ובגיל כ' [ולא ידוע לי שהבדיל בין בן ובת].
בגיל י"ג מגיעה המודעות החברתית שיש לו אחריות כלפי החברה אבל עדיין אינו יכול להיות אידיאליסט לשם האידיאל שזה רק בגיל כ'. [לפ"ז מיושב האיך בי"ד של מטה מחמיר להעניש בזמן שעדיין פטור מצד בי"ד של מעלה והרי מחמירים שלא להעניש בבי"ד של מטה כבמכות ל"ט ולא מ' ובשן תחת שן רק ממון, ואכמ"ל.]
